A new year, a new Svelte Radio episode!

Notes:

Swedish Meatball Recipe:
Makes 4 big portions.

Ingredients:

Steps: 

Transcription:
Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  0:00  
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Svelte radio first one of the year. Not a lot happened over the holidays. But we're going to go through the new stuff anyway. But first, some introductions. I'm Kevin, I run a site called Svelte School, where I teach people about Svelte and I'm involved in the community side of Svelte as well. Yeah,

Shawn  0:22  
I'm Shawn, I work at AWS on AWS amplify, and we are we actually unfixed unbroke, the salt society website recently, so I'm proud of that, even though I didn't really do much there. So shout out to the silentworks, who actually figured out the Modify issue that we had.

Antony  0:40  
Nice. I'm Anthony. I'm the CTO of a company called Beyonk, which is a travel and tourism stars in the UK. I'm also a Svelte core maintainer.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  0:48  
Cool. So what have you guys been doing over the holidays?

Shawn  0:52  
Oh, yeah, we so we figured we will start off with like some updates, right. So I think we some of us got ourselves like Christmas presents. Something I realised actually in catching up with my team at AWS is that everyone bought games, like the games industry must be huge right now. Yeah, I mean, this is not that this is not a surprise, but like, really, because there's nothing else to buy. Yeah, you

Antony  1:15  
say games? Do you mean like board games? Or do you mean like computer games? 

Shawn  1:19  
Mostly? Mostly computer games, butalso board games? I think I think people went for computer games first. And then we realised that we like the digital stimulation or whatever. It's easier to set up computer games.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  1:33  
Have you guys seen the like the cyberpunk game? So what cyberpunk looks amazing. Also very buggy. I was actually I,

Shawn  1:43  
the bugs are the fun part, right? Like you could see one of my top posts on Reddit, the past week was showing off like the amazing detail of the shadowing, of cyberpunk. And how like, even when you hold the rifle, the shadows fall on the rifle and you can you can move around. And then a guy kept on walking backwards. And the shadow came from a car that was being suspended in the air. Because the graphics were like screwed up, like, but the shadows are great.

Antony  2:12  
I mean, this is the bit I didn't understand because what makes game appealing, in my mind the games appealing games feel is in its gameplay, and how explorable is and things like that. I don't know much about games. I mean, I'm a Linux user. I don't really have many games like in the store. Maybe maybe tux racer? I don't know. But I guess the point is for me like I love bugs in games, I think they're I think they're brilliant. They make it much more interesting, but I'm not really a gamer. It looks like so put looks amazing. I've seen some live streaming on Twitch it looks incredible to look at. But honestly from from the brief bit that I looked at it for the game looks like GTA, which is fine in my books, because GTA is the one game that I do occasionally play. The graphics is amazing. But the thing for me is I've heard that the AI is just not really there. Like characters don't even have the basic error you find in games, they just kind of wander around aimlessly into traffic. Like, for me, that takes away a lot of what makes GTA appealing in that there's a sense of realism. If I want to just drive around and follow the road rules and interact with people, then I could do that. And if the AI is not working, then that's gone. So it may be a personal thing, but I feel like they're missing a big trick by not having that sort of stuff ready. And it's not it's prioritised been done a million times. Right. So where Why can't it just be working?

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  3:28  
Right? Right.

Shawn  3:29  
The I'm sure obvious answer is that they rushed it. Sure.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  3:34  
Yeah, sure. Probably probably the explanation actually. Yeah.

Antony  3:39  
So that's all games rushed synthesiser?

Shawn  3:41  
Yeah, probably true. So well. I wanted to point people to resource the GDC YouTube channel Game Dev conference had a really good breakdown of the Spider Man ps4 ai, where it actually shows you how, because Spider Man has infinite rendering. And you can see people you can theoretically interact with any single pedestrian on the street could attack them, you can talk to them whenever. And it's a really interesting choreography of choreography of how it's random AI and then the moment you interact with them, then they're sort of possessed by a different sort of AI and they talk a lot about it. And yeah, it's it's, it's that sounds pretty much as open source as Game Dev can get without actually sharing the code.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  4:25  
Yeah, all right. So so you guys treated yourself to some new presents, I heard

Shawn  4:32  
Sure. My problem is I don't I don't have like a full report and everyone else. So I Oh, okay, I'll the headline is I got a m one. MacBook Mini. Sorry, a Mac Mini. And that's the first desktop that I've purchased ever. You know? Well, because every prior PC that I've ever made, I actually assembled I bought it assembled and obviously You can't do that with Apple. Right? Because hashtag money.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  5:02  
But yeah, unless you go for the Mac Pro, right? But then, yeah.

Shawn  5:08  
Well, so it's a big round trip for me. Because when I was growing up, I used to treat like PCs as like this, where you get serious work done. And then somewhere along the lines, everyone just transitioned to laptops at work. And it became a normal thing. And, and then I just kind of went with it. But this is the first time for me going back intentionally from laptops to desktop. And really, the justification was that it's just half the price. And, and I wasn't really moving that much in COVID. So I think, I think that's kind of it. There's, there's more parts, but like, I really did struggle with that decision, because for twice the desktop price, you could get a battery and a keyboard and a screen, that's decent value right there. So right, it was it was a, it was a real challenge to me as to like, what I should get and what I was trying to invest for. But mainly, I was just kind of curious about all the other reports, I definitely felt my main personal laptop, my only personal laptop is from 2017. So starting to feel the the age a little bit. And in particularly, one of my pain points is video editing, because I do a lot of tutorials and like for work and then for egghead IO, and then sometimes for Svelte and it typically compression is like a one to one ratio, like if you have if you're sort of using ScreenFlow and you're compiling like a like a one hour video, you may need like about one hour, maybe one and a half hours to compress that video. Yeah. So anything that can solve that pain point is good. And, and then obviously compiling code. If that if that's any faster than that, then that's nice as well. And then I heard a lot of fringe benefits. So I think some people in the jealousy community like Devin COVID, but then also maybe, I guess some more famous names like DHH. There's others that have actually jumped on the train, who are failing to come to mind right now. But there's just saying, like just navigating between windows. And I even feel that that latency. So I think anecdotally I feel like it is so I've had it up and running for about four or five days. I feel like it's faster. But then I can distinguish between that and just like the fact that it's a new computer with no software loaded on it. So that's my report.

Antony  7:11  
Fair enough. Fair enough.

Unknown Speaker  7:12  
I mean, it's it's almost as portable as a laptop anyway. Right? Right, right. But if you decide to like Move, move across the globe to back to the US, for example, you can always bring, it's easier to bring it back Mac Mini than a, like a full desktop tower. 

Shawn  7:29  
Sure. So I mean, one of the reasons is that you should get a one laptop is that the the power consumption is very low. But what's the point of getting a there's no point getting a low power consumption if you also end up making a desktop, where there's no battery? Yeah. But it is Oh, I mean, the other one good thing is that there's no need for a fan because apparently the cooling characteristics are very good. Again, like I'm very out of my depth here. I don't know any I don't know much about CPUs and all that. I just repeat what other people say. And maybe you guys can fill me in on that detail. But I do have my fan spin up like right now on this, this work machine that I'm using my fans are spinning up and on. The one is just quiet.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  8:08  
Yeah, silence is really nice.

Antony  8:10  
I mean, so yeah, so I think I did the same sort of thing as Shawn. for similar reasons, I think I would really want an apple and one, mostly because I don't like Intel. And they really have like Intel or the x86 architecture. So for those who don't know, Intel chips, AMD chips, run x86, complex instruction set computing, which is a lot more restrictions that directly translate to CPU instructions. Whereas risk, which is what arm uses is reduced instruction set computing, which is basically less instructions more direct, it basically is two different architectures. What Intel do in the core series processors to speed things up as they actually translate risk to Sisk. So inside a core processor is effectively a small ARM processor. But obviously, that translation has an overhead, right? So there's a cost involved there. So it's just not as fast. So being a Linux user, I can't get him one doesn't it doesn't work on there yet, because it's very Apple proprietary, and it's unlikely ever will not be that I'm hoping that some other manufacturer will sort of jump on the bandwagon and produce their own equivalent. And I'm sure they will after a while because there's no way that the x86 architectures compete now and also because like you know, arm is a British company, they were originally where they are now holding this company somewhere but risk and arm were invented in Britain. And when I went to school, I grew up on ARM processors because it's really what we had in Britain at that time. And so there's a lot for me to like about arm and I don't have any other Intel machines apart from my main machine because of the power of it, right because a lot of ARM processors are generally tablet or phone processes. So I couldn't buy an apple m one even though I really really wanted to because I don't want to run a backhoe sector I want to run Linux. So right I've purchased this asis machine which is probably about the same sort of size. This runs a ryzen chipset, which is AMD is new thing or newish thing, which purports to be a lot faster than Intel's processes. notes on the same architecture with with except for the high end ones. It's a very nice small compact machine, which is, again for Shawn was mentioning it's nice and compact, but like a laptop, it's portable, but also costs the same thing, right? I spend one and a half grand on a laptop to desirable for me. I'm buying this and this cost me 350 quid, right? I had some memory. I had a hard drive, right? Yeah. And it's still like, just over a third of the price of the laptop. And I'm not going anywhere. COVID. UK is completely locked down anyway. But I've worked to him for three years anyway. So I probably should have done this sooner because my laptops 2015. So yeah, I think a lot of the same sort of reasons. And it's a bit weird not going back to a laptop. Because when I grew up, I built on a PCs myself made about 14, I was building PCs, because it's great fun. I was playing games, I was running Windows. When I switch to Linux, I just started looking at laptops because of portability, one around the house, take them to work at work, it was all windows shop, and I want to run the next. So I took my own laptop to work. I never thought I'd get desktop again. Because I thought this is so great. It's almost equivalent performance in a little tiny package is not as fast but it's almost as good, right? So yeah, it's another kind of weird twist for me to to have this this desktop machine, sort of a laptop. But I'm looking forward to it. My my disk is arriving later today. And then I can plug that in and start setting it. So I'll have to bring about reports another another time and how good it is. Next time, sir. I got high hopes.

Shawn  11:22  
I think it'd be interesting to do a count of how many computers per person in your household. And then chart chart that over time. So I have a work machine. I've personal machine. I have my now my legacy laptop, which I just keep around because the resale value isn't there. I have an iPad, and then two phones because I still keep my old iPhone around again, because there's no resale value there. And so that's like six machines, six computers for one person. And yeah, that's that's massively increased from I used to share, like four people to one, one PC, right? Yeah. And yeah, it's really this like transition of personal computing.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  11:57  
The Holy Grail is when you can do everything from your from your phone, right? You don't even need a computer. You just have have your phone.

Antony  12:05  
It has impracticality.

Shawn  12:06  
I don't know if we're there. Yeah. Yeah. I

Unknown Speaker  12:09  
mean, I mean, it's, we're definitely not there. But at some point, I'm sure something like that, it's gonna,

Antony  12:14  
well, Ubuntu tried to do that right with the with the crossover thing. So at one point where I could have an Ubuntu phone, you could plug it into your laptop into your into your monitor, rather, and it would turn into a full desktop machine running up your phone, unfortunately, never succeeded. But that was a cool idea. And something that I think even Apple haven't really sort of gotten that far yet would be interesting to see. I mean, I think on the subject to how many PCs you've got, Shawn must have between 20 and 30. I've kind of forgotten what

Shawn  12:45  
Raspberry Pi's don't count

Antony  12:48  
10 to 20, right. It's still not lower. And it's just because I kind of a hobbyist and I have machines doing various things around the house. And I like building them. I like repairing them badly by cheap and fixing them. I've got two or three behind me. They're just mid repair. So it's like lots of lots of reasons have lots of computers. But in terms of usability, I'm trying to limit to one because I don't like to go into each machine and not have the files on the other machine and the clouds. Wonderful, but it's not quite the same.

Shawn  13:17  
For that for Yeah, I was thinking actually. So having a desktop and then having a like a if I ever do go for conferences and meetups again, having a like a work laptop, it forces you to backlinks up onto the cloud. And I actually thought I thought it was pretty good discipline because that means again, like it's all this, he kept keep like proprietary state in your local machine and not committed.

Antony  13:39  
No, you shouldn't you never should. Right. But But the fact is, even if it's even as the cloud, I've still got to get check out all those projects and do the right links across projects and things like that. It's all a little bits of setup, but also like Dropbox for

Shawn  13:51  
regular files and stuff like yeah, anyway. Yeah. No, it's a thought.

Antony  13:57  
The other thing is I have a thought you'd mentioned like, now I'm non portable in terms of going to a remote office and working, because I've not got a laptop, actually what I what I tend to do in the past anyways, take my Chromebook with me. And then I can basically just RDP or whatever home onto my desktop machine at home. So I don't think it's going to change that much really remote desktops getting better and better. And the Chromebooks perfect for carrying round one because it's arm based, right? It's got super low power requirements. So

Shawn  14:24  
yeah, for those interested in this topic, Yeah, apparently, you can do that with Xbox and ps4. But then also, stadia is kind of like this whole remote gaming concept. And then also, what I think is also trending is this remote development, like with GitHub code spaces, and what's actually as your code spaces, but rebranded for GitHub. So I just learned about mighty, the mighty browser. I don't know if you guys have heard about this. It's basically chromium as a mainframe mainframe. So you never you don't run chrome locally, but you just kind of remote into this thing. Apparently, it's like way faster because like they do, they do Everything in parallel over there on like a much beefier machine. And so I think we might get to this point where we don't have laptops, and it's just like iPad and a keyboard, or like a tablet and a keyboard. Yeah, I know Guillermo Raj from for cell actually is living sort of the iPad life right now where he's only iPad and keyboard. So yeah, it's an interesting peek into the future. Like, maybe just nothing's local.

Antony  15:23  
I mean, it's a peek into the future and the past at the same time, right? Because they used to have these these terminals. Yeah, like mainframes and dumb terminals, wise terminals at your desk, where you remoting into a mainframe machine. It's almost like that's the same thing. But now that mainframe is the cloud. Yep. And the local network is, is this the internet?

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  15:41  
Yeah. It's like we're going in circles and learning a couple of new things every every time around. More than a couple probably. But yeah, we get into to actual Svelte stuff, maybe. Yeah. Well, that's what we're here for. Right.

Antony  15:58  
So this podcast is about

Shawn  16:00  
Yeah, I think. I think I think people like people like, like the community aspect in the in the tech. We're all interested in New Tech. That's why we're here.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  16:07  
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So. So Anthony. what's what's new in SvelteKit.

Antony  16:12  
So over Christmas, I actually kind of felt kind of burnt out. So I actually didn't do a huge amount of Svelte didn't really look at computer from about 22nd to the fourth, because I just nice. I just couldn't face it. Almost. Yeah, I did loads of DIY projects. 

Shawn  16:27  
But that's good. That's you shouldn't you shouldn't feel bad about it.

Antony  16:29  
I don't think I do. I just kind of want more of that. Right. I really want to build a house now. Like, I want to literally build a house from scratch after watching a YouTube channel that I've sort of gotten into. It's like, why am I in tech? It's a really,

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  16:43  
yeah, that's so so random. I I started watching this German guy who's building like a tiny, tiny house. He's renovated tiny house. Yeah. Yeah. So fun to watch. Yeah. So are you going? No,

Antony  16:56  
that's great. I mean, a tiny house things. Another huge thing, I'm gonna mention it, so it's gonna be about pick, but I've got too many picks now. But this is great hammer as well. So so so for my pick, I was going to have Perkins brother build this YouTube channel, because a bit of a sort of deviation from my usual YouTube watching, which is crime and murder and things like that. Perkins for the builders are a couple of brothers who run a company called Perkins brothers builders, oddly enough, and they they're building houses in North Carolina. And they've been sort of videoing it because they've thought, well, we build houses all time. And it's really fun and interesting. And not everyone gets to do it. So why don't we film it and talk you through the process of the decisions we make whilst we're doing it and stuff. And you can kind of watch the channel and watch some of the house bills and go, I think and actually do this myself, because they make it look so easy. But they also tell you all the ins and outs and the decisions they make and stuff. So it's kind of really inspired me, I actually really would like to I do a free internship with them go move that for a bit, right and just build houses for free with them. And I could just be paid in experiences. It's pretty cool. I'd probably make a massive mashup,

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  17:56  
right? But you'd have a lot of fun at the same time. Is there anything you've managed to? Well, since you So

Antony  18:04  
the one thing I noticed about Svelte actually, is that we have this new contributor, he's not made himself public on the organisation yet, so I don't know whether he does or doesn't really mention, but I'm not going to do it for now. But what I'll say is, this person has really sort of jumped in. And he's given us all these amazing features and bug fixes and sort of completing a bunch of the sort of outstanding tasks we need to get into the beta phase. So it's looking really good right now it's looking really nice. And just, it's really cool. When you see so many chips in like that and sort of gets involved really quickly. And up to speed quickly. Svelte been one of those notorious projects where it's quite difficult to get up to speed, because it is quite a complex thing that it does like this, this sts and compilation is difficult. So it's really interesting to see someone jump in and sort of pick up the ball on that. So you know, and of course, riches, riches, launching projects with it right now. So he's also very eagerly sort of getting everything up to speed. So yeah, no promises, again, at everything like that. But we are over the Christmas period, we we took a few leaps and bounds in the right direction. So so it's looking good. Yeah. And it's worth mentioning, probably the language tools, military as well. They've had a major release. So they're on 2.00. Now, I believe, I don't, I can't see what's going into I don't know what to put into it. But I know that it was quite a big chunk of work. So that's well done to them to getting that getting that

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  19:19  
to where it is we should probably have Simon on. Again. We definitely

Antony  19:22  
should have sewn on Yeah, about to talk about

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  19:25  
new stuff, because this is not my strong.

Antony  19:29  
No. And as a non root user, I don't really benefit from the much of this stuff, I get this sort of VS code highlighting and help, but I don't really benefit directly from it. But yeah, I mean, that's, that's probably one of our most busy repositories, because it's just constant improvement from there. The people in language tools are just all over it. It's brilliant.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  19:48  
Yep. Yep. Great work. And then as usual, things are are happening in separate lines as well. Right? Like some bug fixes and stuff like that. Yeah, it's not it's not a bad done

Antony  20:00  
yet? No, no. So I think we're going to come to naught A naught point two, nine release. Ben's been sort of triage and things to go into that release. Now that probably will be like the final release. And it doesn't make sense to kind of start adding features to that at this point, especially if we have the resource we have focused on on Svelte kit, so that zero to nine will be probably the final separate release. If there's anything urgent needs to go into there. Probably now's the time to speak. Actually, one more thing about spell kit and what I've mentioned, because it's now skypark enabled, because it's based on snowpack, because it's now Skype enabled. You can do the fancy, no NPM. just specify URLs to skypeout repositories. And it will download the depths and call them in, which is pretty interesting. Pretty amazing stuff. So yeah, if you haven't heard of skypark, have a look at that, because that's pretty, pretty novel. So

Shawn  20:46  
that means is denno compatible. Yeah, it

Antony  20:49  
sounds like I don't know, but it definitely moves in the right direction. It definitely is a step forward, I think, because Svelte kit will be almost abstracted from node itself, and it'll be more of a kit around potentially deploying to node, or CloudFlare workers or whatever else you want to do. I don't see why there wouldn't be another platform for that, right. It just needs an adapter. Like a compatibility layer. It doesn't tie you as much as Safa did to node anymore.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  21:15  
That's good. It sounds kinda like the ESM modules, right? Yeah.

Antony  21:22  
Yeah. Or how should I? That's a good question. I mean, obviously, rich is very all over ESM. So quite possibly, it's very focused on that. All right. Yeah.

Shawn  21:32  
Yeah, I feel like the the ESM momentum is, is finally coming along. I think node 14 being known for teens where ESM is unflagged. I think, if I'm not mistaken, because I was working really hard. I don't know why it's I don't know why so hard. But it was hard. Yeah. And then and then I saw sindri Saurus is moving all his stuff to ESM. Only Ronnie, he won't he won't break people who, like, assume no polyfills and stuff like that. Yeah, it's it's really coming along. Probably 21 2021 is kind of the year of Vietnam. And pretty good bet to me. I didn't really think about that. At the start, like this time last year.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  22:10  
Yeah. big change. Yeah. Yeah, we should we should probably do some predictions for 2021 oversold later in the show for next time.

Shawn  22:23  
I guess I could also Oh, yeah. I mean, so there is a new blog post is that we talked about?

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  22:27  
Yeah, yeah. I was gonna talk about like the community there.

Shawn  22:31  
So just to update people on then send Sandoval? Yep. He's kind of like taken over as like the official Svelte community newsletter maintainer. There are other Svelte newsletters that are run independently. But this is kind of like the official one that I guess it's published on the Svelte blog. So it's it's official, and he put out a new version on January 1.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  22:49  
Yep. Lots of fun stuff in there.

Shawn  22:51  
Yeah. What is what happened with Svelte component types? I saw the PR, I didn't actually understand it.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  22:55  
Yeah. I, I have no idea like pr kilkelly. The since so it's like a minor release that replace a small component with small component type. And it's something to do with the language tools, I guess. I don't know.

Antony  23:12  
That might be watered down into 200. Right. But I don't know. Again, like I just don't use TypeScript. So I don't see what

Shawn  23:20  
you're doing the types I think

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  23:21  
we should have Simon on. It'll probably

Antony  23:25  
Yeah, I agree.

Shawn  23:29  
Yeah, it's a bunch of community stuff. Right?

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  23:30  
Yeah. Yeah. So there's this Did you see the the listen addict site? I thought that was pretty neat. No, it's it's like a site that notifies you when people have new talks. So I probably like subscribed to you, Shawn. Now, I'll get pings whenever you post new, your new conference

Shawn  23:49  
and stuff. I would I would subscribe to that. Just to put it on my own site. Like, here's my

Antony  23:55  
latest talks, socks. It's not bad idea. Actually, it has a feed of some sort that we really cool. Yeah,

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  23:59  
yeah, it's built and built in Svelte, of course,

Shawn  24:01  
so I know exactly how to commercialise this because I've been thinking about this because I used to work in equity research, and finance. And you have to keep up on the latest news regarding your stock. And guess what, like your CEO is on podcasts, talking about pretty material things to do with their strategy. So it would be nice to get notifications about when when they're on previously, I think the best way is to set like a Google Alert. But that's pretty noisy. So a dedicated tool like this will be pretty helpful. And these guys can pay money.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  24:29  
Yeah. Probably a good good idea for for whoever built it.

Antony  24:35  
Yeah, I learned recently that I carry using Svelte which is surprising.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  24:39  
Yeah, on the international site, like the ikea.com right? Yeah,

Antony  24:43  
it's weird because like all the all these national sites or for me, at least not all the non British sites or equivalent of our sites use felt and, and our native ones don't say like the Catalan for instance, the UK is still using their legacy stuff. And all the European ones are the ones I've looked at are all using Svelte Interesting now, throughout this is

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  25:02  
blowing up though. Yeah, it

Shawn  25:04  
feels like at least it definitely is. It's all relative. I saw I saw Adam Whedon's post it, we're still kind of number four ish in the overall rankings, which is fine. We don't have to be the biggest. And I kind of like that so

Antony  25:18  
well, I mean, yeah, so it is relative, but I would say that the amount of the amount of like inquiries and newcomers is rapidly increasing. I'm seeing a lot more questions. More people a lot more chat. So, see, it's it's definitely blowing up as you say that we go through these kind of spikes now. And then this sort of 2021 appears to be in another one of those. Yeah,

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  25:41  
it's it's fun.

Shawn  25:42  
I mean, it's definitely due to the contributions of everyone in the community. Yeah. And maintainers. And I think rich himself deciding to kick it up a notch with with socket. It just does show just some some life. Yeah, I've seen other projects that just kind of go stale, because they're maintainers don't really think about momentum. And it doesn't matter, because people want to see a heartbeat.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  26:03  
Yeah, I think that this, this newsletter is actually very good thing. Yes.

Shawn  26:08  
And this podcast.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  26:09  
Yep. True. Well, and also the upcoming, the upcoming conference, right? Yeah. Do we have a date? Not? Not yet? No. I'm thinking, April, sometime. Okay. I think that that's how much time we're gonna need. But yeah,

Shawn  26:31  
I mean, yeah, we could we could start kicking off like the talk proposals and stuff like that, I think I think we have a bunch of ideas of how to make things better for for organisers, and speakers and for audience members. Part of that is like the activity like the I've been, I've been actually thinking about this, like, it'd be a nice, nice tradition to have to have like a Svelte coding activity during the conference. Yes, that's hopefully not too distracting, and not too hard. But oh, but also fun. And I realised that clicker games are very involved. Like, I fire up my Apple App Store. And I see a bunch of clicker games. And then, yeah, like, I think they're pretty easy to code. And people can get really creative with them. So we might we might want to do a quick review.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  27:13  
Yeah, we could, could provide like a, like a starter? One. Yeah. And then you can improve on that. Like, yeah, transitions. Exactly.

Shawn  27:21  
You take it the way that you want, like, you can make the state management very complex. So you can do animations or whatever.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  27:27  
Yeah, I was thinking about having, like, quiz between talks, where you have like, people can join in a cave, or something like that. Or I think it was Jake and Sermo who did a, like they did charades at some Google family. Yeah, like a month ago. It was just like a short one. That could also be fun. So you can invite like community members to join in? Yeah. Lots of cool ideas. It's gonna be way better than than the second one. Even though that was very good night. Yeah.

Shawn  28:03  
Yeah. Yeah. And also, the other thing that I think we all agree on is that it should be shorter. So it's not drag. You don't feel tired at the end of the day. All right. But yeah, I mean, so the reason I brought that up was because I see a bunch of games here as well. Like there's a there's a multiplayer Tetris game in the community showcase. There's a math based challenge game. It actually reminds me of that the other game that's rich Harris really liked was that like, tic see. Do you guys know about that?

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  28:29  
No, not where, what's that? It's

Shawn  28:31  
like, you have to use it. You're restricted to these four, four variables. TI X, Y, like time index, then x&y position. Oh, yes. And then and you have to code within 280 characters and produce something interesting. And it's like, it's like a really interesting, like code golfing challenge. And that's it. That's a fun game too.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  28:49  
Yeah, that could be something to do.

Antony  28:51  
That makes sense with the old little matrix thing he posted? A while ago. Dixieland era. Yeah,

Shawn  28:57  
exactly.

Antony  28:58  
Yeah, yeah, that's cool.

Shawn  29:00  
Yeah. Frankie's? Yeah, there's a bunch of octave. kompass I don't know. Yeah.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  29:06  
A lot of fun stuff. And some some new libraries and components as well. Like the someone did the like their react. query, but for Svelte,

Antony  29:18  
Svelte query. I didn't see that.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  29:20  
Yeah. I think it's like a, I'm not entirely sure if it's the same thing, but it looks cool.

Antony  29:29  
Svelte, Svelte. No, was it called it spacey a Svelte version of is this react? graph QL. Module

Shawn  29:36  
microview. Older is called micro micro graph. QL. I don't know. What one? Yeah,

Antony  29:43  
I think he rewrote it and Svelte.

Shawn  29:45  
Right, right, right. I mean, so Okay, I guess I have my cell mentioned. So Matthew, his style. His Twitter handle is like HGS ch with underscores between them. Hey, Jess. Oh, yeah. He also tweeted about a 20 line of code internationally. library in Svelte and then he also made a talk about it and because I am trying I'm in this mode of like requesting for talks to like keep the YouTube active and you know, just like just continue sharing content from from people like outside of a conference setting, right. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, he's just very passionate about it and it made this talk on Svelte internal nationalisation. Effectively labour in exactly is much easier to pronounce. It's just yeah. If you don't know what it is, then it's been hard to find. But anyway, sure.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  30:30  
Yeah. So he's, he's the guy that did the defending democracy with Svelte thing, right. Well, that was the title. But that's, that's what the tagline ended up being.

Shawn  30:41  
I just like, yeah, the database people have really embraced Svelte in a big way. Yeah. Moritz, I think on the data stories, podcasts also interviewed Amelia Weinberger. And yeah, I almost think there there should be like, a single day of the sales society conference dedicated to database because there's just such a big community there.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  31:00  
Yeah, I was I was a bit sceptical to that at first, but I think why? position? Well, because I didn't realise how popular Svelte is, in the day of is like, Oh, really? Yeah, I

Shawn  31:14  
understood it uses it. Yeah, I

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  31:17  
know. I know. But then, then I kind of like, I was thinking maybe you could position Svelte as, like the database framework, in a way to as a marketing thing. I mean, yeah. Well,

Shawn  31:35  
yeah, well, there's d3. So

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  31:37  
I know. But if you could do better, or could you? I don't know.

Antony  31:43  
I mean, d3 is very specialised, right. It's very specialised. Svelte was with general purpose. But I guess I guess it kind of always automatically positions itself for database, because of the way that the rich has built it in ways using it. I think reactivity is also very good for, for that sort of stuff.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  32:01  
Yes. All right. Let's see here. There are a bunch of other new components that you can take a look at. Tiny virtual lists are some routers, we've been missing routers,

Unknown Speaker  32:14  
yeah, more routers.

Shawn  32:17  
I mean, it's worth actually checking these out. Because if people are trying to solve real problems,

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  32:22  
we're Yeah, jokingly saying it like that. But it's I think,

Antony  32:26  
I think that having Scotland scale was, was great, because he mentioned tin row. And I've kind of looked at that and never looked away. Now. I'm so focused on. It's just really great.

Shawn  32:37  
He's got this. He's very opinionated about about routing, which is pretty cool. I'm not it's like, as long as as long as I got a link a way to link things. And, you know, although I wish that I guess, query params were a formal part of the state that you get from routes, because I end up having to build that so much.

Unknown Speaker  32:55  
Really? Yeah.

Shawn  32:56  
Yeah. That's how that's how you like get like copy and paste the copy paste of both apps, which with like, the state, just embedded in the URL? Right.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  33:04  
Yeah.

Shawn  33:05  
Put it on the query. params. Okay, one more, one more. Library. And then and I think we're done is Svelte zoomable. I think it's coming from Daniel Dimfeld. He's, he's just like, very active. I don't know who this guy is, to be honest. But he's just very active online while he's passed away. But yeah, it's just like a transition or animation sort of library type of thing. And, yeah, it's it's, uh, it's published. And it's in a repple. When I mean, the demo looks pretty good. So it's just another way to zoom back and forth between content, I guess.

Antony  33:37  
It's, I did see like if the channel actually a good one.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  33:40  
Yeah. And there's a bunch of new learning resources as well. I haven't been able to check these out. There's someone made a awesome Svelte list. Yes, that's, that's nice. We also have the salt society one.

Antony  33:53  
This I mean, this, I think this must be the more the merrier is already right. There's now three, three or four. Yeah. Probably would be nice to have a single manager. I mean,

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  34:02  
yeah, I think the problem here is like keeping them up to date. And, yeah, because people lose interest. And they don't have time. All sorts of reasons. Right?

Antony  34:12  
Yeah, I guess that's the advantage to having one as part of a website rather than a than a GitHub repo because people can actually like vote the feedback on ones that maybe don't work anymore, or, or libraries have become abandoned or whatever. They can rate review them that sort of stuff.

Shawn  34:27  
But that's my issue with awesomeness in general. No one ever files the PR to note that something is no longer awesome.

Antony  34:32  
Yeah. Someone someone could do that on on the components inside Svelte actually inside the because we've got this Svelte integrations repository, which is kind of I maintain it myself right now. And it's it's unknown who knows what happened to it or it's where it's destined for but, but someone did to appear, I think to remove a load of stuff. I was like, that's pretty nice.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  34:52  
Yeah, is cool. So I think there's one pretty interesting, like, talk or learning thing here. It's like reactive web apps with crystal and Svelte crystal is really cool. language I suppose for back end development. I've been interested in taking a look at it, but

Antony  35:13  
what was it based on?

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  35:15  
So it's inspired by Ruby. Right? Okay.

Antony  35:17  
I mean, it's sort of makes sense to space. Yeah.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  35:19  
Yeah. What else is there?

Shawn  35:22  
I can give a couple of these from the Twitter side of things. So there's new community organisers popping up all the time. I think there is like, I'm tracking something like 15 small societies worldwide. Wow. Which is, it is what it is because like, there's no there's no meetings going on. So everyone's online mostly for the most part, but I do I do hope to start Svelte society Singapore soon. Yeah. So Svelte, Canada is looking for for help with the logo and everything I think Mike Nichols, who has published some some good stuff in the past, he's looking for help so anyone in Canada once you get in touch either get in touch with me or Mike Nichols and get get that going. Small Dublin has is basically up for adoption. The guy was was running it was like I'm not I'm not doing a good job maintaining this but I have a sweet URL, which is spelt dub, l dot i n. So this is Dublin. I measured all the Dublin stuff is just always on squatting on indian indian domain names randomly. But yeah, stuff is going on. I think India is kind of chugging along as well. They're organising a meetup, and I'm helping them put stuff up on YouTube as well. Yeah. So I think my message is, I guess first of all in your area particularly in in different languages, at least for Brazil is is quite active. I have no idea about Russia. But yeah,

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  36:41  
that's Yeah, we don't we don't know about much from from from those guys.

Antony  36:45  
Svelte Russia should

Shawn  36:46  
be actually huge, didn't it? We should have sold it. It's probably still huge. We just don't know

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  36:50  
yet. Probably. Yeah. There's also so there's a new there's there was a guy contacted me about starting like a Svelte society, Italy, as well. Oh, yes. Interesting. I haven't gotten back to him yet. Which I just realised that. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think that's it for new stuff.

Antony  37:12  
I think there's one more thing actually, there's humble bundles books, right? There's a new Humble Bundle out and one of the books in there is Svelte three book. Oh, I feel like it's the book written by Italy Pale Ale, I believe works at Microsoft, I think.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  37:30  
Yep. Yeah, he did the router right. Svelte sp router.

Antony  37:34  
Yeah, these fellas favours it. Yeah, correct. Yeah, sure. That shows laughing

Shawn  37:39  
I don't know why. Maybe I just like is like how we Yeah, we don't know their real names. We just know their

Antony  37:48  
sweat. squeaks is laughing at me now.

Shawn  37:51  
Yeah, exactly. You know, yours. Yours is just Antony, wherever you go. Yeah.

Antony  37:55  
Yeah. Speaking slower. I can get it. Yeah,

Shawn  37:59  
no. Cool. But I think that's going on. And hopefully as the year continues, will will, will liven up even more.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  38:05  
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Right. So picks

Antony  38:09  
us I do have another pick. Yeah. So I mean, I'm happy to go first if

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  38:13  
Yeah, sorry, go for it.

Antony  38:14  
So my pick is a now this is one of the things like I say that I haven't purchased it but I have purchased it in a way. So we went through went shopping and we were looking at these these bone conduction headphones because my friend has them for cycling and I've got the box here but that's not really useful because now I can really see it but effectively a bone conducting headphones or bone conduction headphones, what they essentially do is they sit just to the front of your ear just not in the air and they vibrate the bones in your ear rather than using sound waves to do that they've written directly so it means that you can actually have music on in reasonably good quality and it's pretty high quality for I've listened to a reasonable volume you know quite high volume even and yet you can still hear and interact in conversations around you and you're not shouting because you're wearing headphones and you're not missing things because you're wearing headphones you can just almost communicate normally with music playing as well. It's almost like having speakers in the room. It's it's quite amazing and they're perfect for things like swimming because there's no sort of there's no actual outputs, you know, Speaker out but things that are totally waterproof and they're Bluetooth capable so you can you can have a Bluetooth to your phone while you're swimming or they can be a music on them. These particular ones called aftershocks. So we've been trying out these aftershocks ones and they're really good in terms of all those features is it's just something that's never really occurred to me but I don't wear headphones often when I'm out in the street because I like to be aware of my surroundings and this does solve that which is quite amazing for me. So yeah, my picker guest is bone conducting headphones as a rule but if you're gonna have a look at these have a look at the aftershocks cuz they're, they're a pretty good example of

Shawn  39:51  
that. So my dad uses these and I always wonder like, have we conclusively studied all the health impacts of vibrating your your head bone at this height.

Antony  40:00  
Frequency time. Someone else mentioned this as well. And I think that my response will be this would still be the same is that when you listen to music, whatever volume music works by vibrating the three bones in your ear, right? The hammer and nails, so vibrating via sound waves, or directly, surely is not as much of a muchness, right, if the music's the same volume.

Shawn  40:22  
It's pretty reasonable, depending on where you were.

Antony  40:25  
We I think you were there just in front of your Yeah, what's, what's the bone there?

No, it

just transmits through the bones. Isn't that space? I don't know, to be honest, but I would feel as it sort of layman's guess. And it's not any worse or better than listening to music via sound waves are basically the same bones.

Shawn  40:42  
Alright, fair enough.

Antony  40:44  
But again, I don't I don't know. I'm not I'm not medically trained.

Shawn  40:49  
Yeah, anyway, it's probably just an irrational fear. Should you go first or should I

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  40:53  
yeah, I can go so this this Christmas I I made homemade Swedish meatballs. Which are amazing. What I don't come from IKEA.

actually made them from scratch. Using a recipe. No, but but if you haven't tried, like homemade proper Swedish meatballs, you really should. It's really good. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, recipe. Yes. I'll share it in the in the notes. Nice. Sweet. Well, that's

Shawn  41:28  
a good pick. Solid pick. Yeah. Well, I was gonna, I'm gonna pick a friend because he helped me out recently. So this is Andrew Welch is gaijin NT on Twitter. gaijin. Like the Japanese name for foreigner, I assume his blog is at ny Studio 107 dot com. And his podcast is at dev mode.fm. I just generally find him to be a pretty nice, knowledgeable guy. Not not pretty, like very nice and a little bit edgy. He's funny. He just listened to any beginning introduction of demo.fm he asked you like a oddball question that just throw you off your balance. And when the one time I was on i was i was really taken off guard. And I like to totally lost my train of thought. And he likes to do that to like, kind of

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  42:10  
what was the was the question.

Shawn  42:12  
She was like, if you're like camping in the Himalayas, with like llamas and you're on your like, last tin can of food. Which JavaScript framework would you? Like? It's just like a completely unrelated setting. You just don't thinking about the situation because he's, like, very descriptive and very, like he just seems to come up with it on the spot. If you're like jumping out of an aeroplane with no parachute, which kind of CSS style do you like? It's pretty funny. But the reason I'm picking him is because he's very knowledgeable. Like, his blog has articles on tailwind Webpack, AWS Docker, and it's very, very annotated, like if you ever wanted to understand what a web pack config looks like, he's actually gone through and annotated all of it and explained it really well. And it's very nicely laid out. And yeah, I'm in disguise and been in industry for decades. And he's still doing this for fun for Yeah. And it's just like, he's the kind of developer I kind of want to be.

Antony  43:03  
He's not only houses and

Shawn  43:04  
no houses. No, he's just, he's just living his life. And he's got a podcast got a bunch of friends talking about tech and making clients happy. I think i think it's it's a it's like a platonic idea of like, what a developer life could be like. And then and so like, his blog was really helpful. But then also, I had this problem recently, because I got a vertical monitor, and it wasn't filling my screen wasn't filling up the monitor with and I tweeted it out within five minutes, he actually gave me the exact right answer that I needed. So I was like, damn it, you even know, like, hardware stuff, like so so I'm pretty helpful guy. I recommend him highly. Sounds good.

Antony  43:38  
Sounds good. Question, actually,

is anyone made? And I'm gonna say this because I don't I don't necessarily believe in these new year's resolutions. I don't. I don't think if you've got something to fix in your life, you should wait a year to some arbitrary date to do it. But no problem is one of those things that people do. Right. So So has anyone gone in?

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  43:58  
I was thinking about, like, maybe doing one, but not like a proper one. It's just like one of those you do every year? Like, I'm gonna exercise more this year, or something like that? Seems like a good thing to have. Yeah,

Antony  44:12  
I think Kim, Shawn,

Shawn  44:13  
yeah, for me. So I also struggle with that idea of like, I think setting one year goals is an arbitrary length of time. And most of us, the way I put it is most of us haven't earned the right to set one year goals if we can't even set like a one month goal, or and then and then like, just like keep cutting it down. So for me, I actually blogged about this at the start of the year. They call this like a Fibonacci goal system where you sort of follow the Fibonacci sequence like you set a one day goal make sure you reach that set, then set a two day goal three day goal five day. What's next

Unknown Speaker  44:42  
at the next Fibonacci one?

Shawn  44:46  
Yeah, apparently, if you got if you got to add, yeah, I forgot to 89. So from one all the way to 89 actually takes 232 days total, which is August 20. And with so anytime you miss a goal, because you're gonna miss them, and the problem with like, annual goals like basically you just kind of give up. Right there. Yeah, yeah, for my system, I think he kind of just stepped back one level. So if you if you miss, like the five day goal, then you go back to the three day goal, get a win. And once you have that when you try the five day goal again, and just to basically build goal reaching as a muscle, and it kind of makes the case that most people don't have the ability to make one year goals, because they don't know how to estimate goals. And you don't have the discipline to stick to it. So you kind of have to just build it up from scratch. So yeah, I mean, that's it. For me, the problem is like, what should you set the goal on? That's an open question. And I don't really have one for So writing is a base baseline thing for me. So my my January 1, one day goal was writing January 3, I did practice a computer for two days. And and then I took it took a break because I fell sick. Today I have to decide my three day goal. And right yeah, just keep going.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  45:51  
I think I'm going to try this. Yeah,

Antony  45:52  
I was really ready to dismiss the first like you have to earn the right to make a year goal kind of thing. Because I thought, well, I'll do what I like. But actually now you've put it in that perspective that you work your way through the Fibonacci sequence. That's really interesting. I really like that. Actually, I'm not trying to imply that, that,

Shawn  46:07  
obviously illusions or figurative figures are right. You know, it's just

Antony  46:10  
yeah, sure, sure. But it's one of the things is like, it's like, it's it seems like, I don't know, it's, it's interesting that it immediately sounds like a negative. But actually, if you think about the reasons behind it, it's really positive. Actually, I really like that interesting.

Shawn  46:24  
We've got to build a thing up. The reason the reason I started thinking about this, because I've been very steeped in this idea that systems are better than goals, which is this idea that just setting goals by themselves also don't tell you how to accomplish them. Sure. And also, once you reach them, you kind of lost, whereas systems are kind of just ever running every going. And they kind of just tell you what to do every day. And so a lot of systems over goals, people are just like, it's just Google's like no, no goals. And I don't think that's right, either. So I wanted a balance with goals and systems. So essentially, the the conclusion was a system of goals. And this was what I came up with

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  46:56  
a system. This was was this a blog post he wrote,

Shawn  47:00  
yeah, it's a six.io slash people. And he goes, Yeah,

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  47:03  
we'll link it in the show notes. All right, cool. So that's, that's us for for this time.

Shawn  47:08  
Yeah. It's always fun catching up and yeah, Happy New Year.

Kevin Åberg Kultalahti  47:11  
Yeah. Happy New Year, everyone. Bye. Bye bye.