Speaker 1: welcome to svelte radio

Speaker 1: Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Svelte Radio. We're back.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: Hello Brittany.

Speaker 2: Hello.

Speaker 2: Hi Kev. Great to see you all again.

Speaker 1: Yeah, likewise. How were your holidays? What did you do? Anything fun?

Speaker 2: I'm not a holiday man, but this time it was great just chilling out.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: So you

Speaker 2: don't

Speaker 1: like Christmas? Is that what you're...

Speaker 1: Ah, yes. That

Speaker 2: is why. Not a fan.

Speaker 2: And ever since I had kids, where the stakes are a bit higher now,

Speaker 2: because kids love Christmas.

Speaker 2: I dislike it even more.

Speaker 1: That's interesting.

Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of people that become parents

Speaker 1: kind of rediscover the joy of Christmas

Speaker 1: because

Speaker 3: they get

Speaker 1: to live Christmas through their kids.

Speaker 1: That's my

Speaker 3: wife.

Speaker 1: I see.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: So you just have to do all the other boring stuff.

Speaker 2: We still have Christmas decorations up in January,

Speaker 2: end of January.

Speaker 4: We just put ours away two days ago.

Speaker 4: I was like, well, my oldest daughter, her birthday is January 17th.

Speaker 4: And she told us we couldn't take them down until after birthday.

Speaker 4: And so the other day I was like, okay, enough.

Speaker 4: Like I drug the box up and I'm like, put it away.

Speaker 4: It's got to go.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: I don't want to be a bus girl.

Speaker 2: I think it's great that if you buy stuff.

Speaker 2: I think

Speaker 4: I enjoy more now at my age giving and seeing the joy that they get from receiving the gift,

Speaker 4: like the kids and stuff, then I personally don't really care anymore.

Speaker 4: I

Speaker 3: actually find it

Speaker 4: very difficult to shop for my husband and he still wants a

Speaker 4: gift and I hate like doing it.

Speaker 4: I just like, just like go buy your own gift or something.

Speaker 4: I don't know, but he wants you to put thought into it and care.

Speaker 4: And I'm just, I don't have enough left in me to care.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Have you heard about Claude bot?

Speaker 1: It's all on the internet,

Speaker 2: right?

Speaker 2: I guess that could buy a kid.

Speaker 4: But it also like

Speaker 2: empty like your bank account.

Speaker 4: Can you tell me what to do?

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. So CloudBot is, I actually think they changed the name.

Speaker 1: So it's called MaltBot now because of some, because of

Speaker 2: the trademark.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 4: I thought you were saying something like Cloud Code.

Speaker 1: Right. It's very similar, right? But it's

Speaker 4: a different company.

Speaker 1: Yeah. So MaltBot, it's basically like a personal assistant kind of that runs

Speaker 1: on your computer and you can have it read your email

Speaker 1: and then you just chat to it through,

Speaker 1: I don't know, WhatsApp or Telegram or iMessage

Speaker 1: and just goes and does stuff on your computer for you.

Speaker 4: So you can have it like, oh.

Speaker 4: - I can chat with it through that.

Speaker 4: It doesn't have like a web GUI

Speaker 4: or a desktop app or anything?

Speaker 4: - It

Speaker 1: does, but if you have it on WhatsApp,

Speaker 1: you can just chat to it on your iPhone, right?

Speaker 1: - That is pretty cool.

Speaker 1: - And you can just have it

Speaker 2: say like,

Speaker 1: add a calendar

Speaker 2: event, blah, blah.

Speaker 2: - I guess the idea is also that like your whole family,

Speaker 2: it's a family of assistants that everyone has

Speaker 4: to use claude i i do that i have the app on my phone

Speaker 4: i have the desktop version i have claude code for cli stuff and i had it create an mcp server that

Speaker 4: will create an apple note every two weeks for my invoice

Speaker 3: oh nice wrap

Speaker 4: the email like i i have claude

Speaker 4: do so much stuff for me like my skincare routine i had it go through all of this

Speaker 2: does claude do

Speaker 2: your skincare routine it

Speaker 4: it told me like the order to put everything

Speaker 2: on and what

Speaker 4: to do morning and

Speaker 4: night like it it helped me with that like i mean everything like i'm just trying to get into using

Speaker 4: it more because it's been

Speaker 3: really helpful

Speaker 4: at like organizing a lot of things that are tedious and

Speaker 4: you don't want to do yeah i i'm all for it take all my data i don't care

Speaker 1: well that's i guess that's

Speaker 1: the the kind of the scary thing with with malt pot that it does what claw does but i think it

Speaker 1: has even you can give it even more access

Speaker 3: so you can just like

Speaker 1: let it do everything um

Speaker 3: i think

Speaker 3: scott

Speaker 1: tulinski posted posted something on on x about how he had let me see if i can find the

Speaker 4: i

Speaker 4: don't go to that site anymore i don't i can't no

Speaker 1: i i know i know a lot of people don't but the tweet

Speaker 1: was yeah so uh things my quad bot has done reorganized my nas created personalized custom

Speaker 1: meditations started work on to-dos that were falling behind cataloging meals and recipes

Speaker 1: adjusting custom total workouts blah blah blah tail scale like it just goes on it's just like

Speaker 1: random stuff kind of

Speaker 4: want to be done all of that you can do if you wanted to stay in the same

Speaker 4: ecosystem like i pay for the max subscription so mine's a hundred dollars a month so if you're

Speaker 4: already in that like you could do

Speaker 3: all of

Speaker 4: that i do my workouts through that and it'll add it straight

Speaker 4: to my google calendar so it's on my calendar like yeah it is it

Speaker 1: is it is very cool like like it's

Speaker 1: super it's super nice um

Speaker 3: yeah i've

Speaker 1: been vibe coding like crazy these these last few weeks and i i don't

Speaker 1: think i've written more than like 10 lines of code and i've vibe coded a gym tracking app i can

Speaker 1: actually show it to you um

Speaker 3: so if you go to

Speaker 1: gym dot let me actually post link here um this is basically

Speaker 1: just like I told it, build me a gym workout tracking app that works in the browser, but

Speaker 1: that also has sync capabilities.

Speaker 3: And so I can

Speaker 1: just enter this text string and then I can sync it with

Speaker 1: my phone and I can do my workouts on the app. And it's just like

Speaker 4: Oh,

Speaker 4: does it use query parameters or like

Speaker 1: I don't

Speaker 1: remember.

Speaker 4: What does it do? Like I haven't

Speaker 1: really looked at the code, right? That's the thing.

Speaker 4: You're just like,

Speaker 4: I don't care.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it just tracks my exercises that I've done and like the volume and like how much I've lifted and stuff.

Speaker 1: And I mean, I had to, I've been vibe coding so much.

Speaker 1: I had to upgrade to the, like the 20X

Speaker 3: max plan.

Speaker 1: And I had to get two other subscriptions, two other services because I'm using so much AI at LLMs at the moment.

Speaker 3: For

Speaker 1: example, I vibe coded CMS for conferences that I'm almost done with.

Speaker 1: Haven't really written a lot of code for this.

Speaker 1: That's for Svelte Summit, obviously, right?

Speaker 1: I see.

Speaker 1: And it's just got like, oh, CFP handling.

Speaker 1: It's got sponsor handling, like everything.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And it's like, it just does it for you.

Speaker 4: Have you ever tried Lovable?

Speaker 1: I have not.

Speaker 4: I did see a video

Speaker 1: today with like a Swedish influencer that went to their offices because

Speaker 1: it's here in Stockholm.

Speaker 1: right

Speaker 4: oh and the

Speaker 1: the guy that started lovable he he lives in like a i don't know if you call it a

Speaker 1: collective in english like so he lives with like 12 other people and he's just like

Speaker 4: a

Speaker 1: billionaire

Speaker 1: right

Speaker 4: oh my god yeah that's very random i i said that because uh the reason like my company got

Speaker 4: into ai or is getting into ai is like lovable was one of the ceo's first like forays into it and she

Speaker 4: would give

Speaker 3: it like

Speaker 4: the specifications and then she'd be able to see it and you can actually see

Speaker 4: the website like as it's working so i think

Speaker 1: that's one of the benefits

Speaker 4: of that one but i've never

Speaker 4: worked with it yeah

Speaker 1: i i the thing with with most of these like ai kind of services is i get the

Speaker 1: feeling that you you can get 80 there but then you kind of have to work

Speaker 3: manually with

Speaker 1: it to get it to

Speaker 1: work, but I haven't tried lovable. So maybe that's not, maybe that's not the case.

Speaker 1: So that, that, that was the, this week's AI chat.

Speaker 1: Unless you guys.

Speaker 4: I thought we were just going to go like full AI. Like that's the

Speaker 1: title.

Speaker 2: Inviting a fourth member to the radio, which is like this robot that talks.

Speaker 4: Oh yeah. Just like.

Speaker 4: We don't even have to talk to each

Speaker 2: other. And then the listeners,

Speaker 2: they can also have their AI listen to it. So they don't have to, I mean,

Speaker 2: That's the piece I feel AI is

Speaker 4: missing, is voice.

Speaker 4: So we have Siri and

Speaker 3: Google.

Speaker 3: But

Speaker 4: if I do, I don't feel like at least Claude can't speak to me.

Speaker 4: And me speaking to Claude works 75% of the time

Speaker 3: if you just

Speaker 4: try to talk into it.

Speaker 4: But it doesn't always translate my words correctly.

Speaker 4: And it's not fluent.

Speaker 4: And it's not like I'm talking to someone.

Speaker 4: That would be.

Speaker 2: So that's, I don't know if you, I think if you're on an iPhone, you don't have, but on

Speaker 2: an Android, there's this Gemini thing.

Speaker 2: And it has like this live talk where you can actually have a conversation and you can interrupt

Speaker 2: each other.

Speaker 2: I think that's, well, the AI doesn't interrupt you, but you can interrupt the agent.

Speaker 2: Interesting.

Speaker 4: So I think you can download Gemini, but I, I did end up having to switch the dark side

Speaker 4: of getting an iPhone instead of an Android.

Speaker 4: I've been an Android user and fan for a very long time, but

Speaker 2: finally, I mean, now they have

Speaker 2: a deal.

Speaker 2: Gemini

Speaker 1: will be

Speaker 1: probably going to be a thing on Apple

Speaker 1: on iPhones someday

Speaker 2: but I think one thing just to stay on that track

Speaker 2: one thing that annoys me a lot is like

Speaker 2: when I do try to talk with

Speaker 2: Gemini and I press this microphone button

Speaker 2: it's not pushed to talk

Speaker 2: it's just like when I have a pause

Speaker 2: it just starts responding to me

Speaker 3: please let

Speaker 2: me think

Speaker 2: please let me just have a slight talk

Speaker 1: before you

Speaker 2: into it

Speaker 1: yeah because humans can do that

Speaker 1: right humans can see that

Speaker 1: probably going to say something else yeah after you yeah all right llms honestly i'm i'm a bit

Speaker 1: scared about the future

Speaker 2: oh i'm not i'm gonna be great yeah

Speaker 1: well

Speaker 4: i i think in

Speaker 1: what way right

Speaker 4: there still needs to be regulation and like in the u.s at least we have no regulation on it at all and

Speaker 4: how much are we destroying the earth with this so like i i worry about like that piece of things

Speaker 4: more than like ai taking over everything which i mean maybe but it just needs and maybe it won't

Speaker 4: need so much oversight one day but it needs so much oversight right now

Speaker 2: there's a lot of energy

Speaker 2: and that's uh it's a bit too much yeah yeah

Speaker 1: i mean for me it's more of a like does it even

Speaker 1: matter what framework we're using does it even matter

Speaker 3: what tools we're using because

Speaker 1: like why

Speaker 1: would I why would anyone care if I if you can just or

Speaker 4: the users,

Speaker 4: that's why. So what is the most performant for the users? What

Speaker 4: can we use to get there? And that would be the only reasons

Speaker 4: like, it doesn't matter what's on our end, the developer

Speaker 4: experience matters zero anymore. Like I feel like,

Speaker 3: like

Speaker 4: our whole

Speaker 4: likes felt stuff is just like, built on developer experience.

Speaker 4: And now it's like,

Speaker 2: I don't agree with that.

Speaker 4: You don't?

Speaker 4: In

Speaker 2: my experience, the A18s will give you like 70%.

Speaker 2: You have to bring the 30% on your own to make it high quality.

Speaker 3: I agree with that.

Speaker 3: And for that to be easier,

Speaker 2: you want the DX, you want the framework to be the right one.

Speaker 2: And yeah, I don't believe in eyes closed, Vibe coding can bring you to an actual great multi-million

Speaker 2: people product.

Speaker 1: I don't know.

Speaker 1: There are a lot of crappy products out there that make a lot of money.

Speaker 2: That is true.

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1: You make a lot of crappy

Speaker 2: products.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean, on the other hand, anyone can make an exercise app like me, right?

Speaker 1: No.

Speaker 4: So maybe it's

Speaker 1: the case that...

Speaker 4: A time ago, right?

Speaker 4: But he actually coded it.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Wasted his time, didn't he?

Speaker 1: I'm just kidding, Scott.

Speaker 1: if you're listening.

Speaker 1: All right. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Let's talk about Svelte then on this very happy note

Speaker 1: of LLMs taking over or maybe not.

Speaker 1: So what is new in Svelte since last year?

Speaker 1: It's a new year.

Speaker 1: It's been there's been so many things that I've

Speaker 2: been changing.

Speaker 2: I mean, it feels like there's a lot of loose ends

Speaker 2: that needs to be tied up soon.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Remote

Speaker 1: functions.

Speaker 2: Yeah. SvelteKit 3.0 at some point.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm

Speaker 4: very excited.

Speaker 4: Big milestone, right? Because focus has shifted now from regular spelt to spelt kit.

Speaker 4: Yeah, it does feel like that.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I guess we're all just waiting for remote funks to become stable

Speaker 1: so we can start using them in production. I'm already using them in production.

Speaker 2: I think it's a very

Speaker 1: impressive

Speaker 2: paradigm. Now we've seen a couple of takes on how do you do

Speaker 2: remote functions or remote APIs in your meta framework. And I think the ones in SvelteKit

Speaker 2: are something I've seen before. And so I think that's very important.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Have you had a chance to try them yet, Brittany?

Speaker 1: Nope.

Speaker 1: Remote functions? Oh, you're missing out.

Speaker 3: Maybe actually

Speaker 1: wait until they're stable.

Speaker 1: So you don't have to like, "Oh, I want to use this. I want to use this." But you can't because

Speaker 1: it's experiment so understand

Speaker 4: like when i first started coding i loved it so much i was like

Speaker 4: taking in everything and you want to like build everything and make it better and iterate on it

Speaker 4: but then a lot of times i would run into people and they were just like going day to day day in

Speaker 4: day out just kind of like trying to do their job and check out and i kind of like am to that point

Speaker 4: to where i understand that and that's because like when you're actually building like a brand

Speaker 4: new product and you have to be like building new features and stuff you have no time to like look

Speaker 4: at all of this stuff like you're just like oh i'm doing this this

Speaker 2: is and then totally you're

Speaker 4: just

Speaker 4: always reiterating on it and there's no time for refactoring there's no time for looking at your

Speaker 4: code base and going oh why did i do that

Speaker 1: right right well you know now you can have claude

Speaker 4: yeah you have to speed on the

Speaker 1: latest news and stuff

Speaker 4: yeah or you

Speaker 1: can use the new svelte society

Speaker 1: website

Speaker 4: oh good see what i did there yeah yeah yeah my

Speaker 1: segway um i think i mentioned the the

Speaker 1: new svelte society website uh on on the podcast before but but not i haven't really talked that

Speaker 1: much about it um it's been going nicely we've we've got a bunch of submitters uh and people

Speaker 1: adding stuff to it.

Speaker 1: So that's always nice to see.

Speaker 1: I've restructured it a bit.

Speaker 1: I like the search and everything

Speaker 1: works without JavaScript, which

Speaker 1: is kind of

Speaker 3: cool.

Speaker 1: It's an

Speaker 1: omni-search bar, so you

Speaker 5: can

Speaker 5: search in tags and stuff.

Speaker 5: Yeah,

Speaker 1: it's pretty nice.

Speaker 1: And tomorrow, or a couple

Speaker 1: of days, we'll see

Speaker 1: when it's done, I'm actually pushing

Speaker 1: a new feature where people

Speaker 1: or companies can submit jobs

Speaker 1: on the website.

Speaker 4: can i like website on live

Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely what's what's the nav

Speaker 4: on the left doesn't have

Speaker 4: cursor pointer and like there's no like link tree so when you hover over it you don't see where

Speaker 4: you're going

Speaker 1: what mine

Speaker 2: has cursor pointer

Speaker 1: yeah mine as well is

Speaker 4: it because i'm in full screen

Speaker 4: no i'm i'm on a macbook and i'm in chrome and i have no cursor pointer and i don't see the links

Speaker 1: That is weird because I can see the links and I have a cursor as well.

Speaker 2: Yeah, me too.

Speaker 2: I

Speaker 4: can see

Speaker 2: Cat's cursor.

Speaker 4: Maybe it's just a bug.

Speaker 4: I mean, I'm in full

Speaker 1: screen and I'm on

Speaker 4: a trackpad, so maybe

Speaker 1: it's me.

Speaker 1: It

Speaker 3: could very well

Speaker 1: be a bug.

Speaker 1: It's like browser

Speaker 4: difference thing.

Speaker 4: Oh, that's another thing.

Speaker 4: I don't want to go on a tangent yet, so keep talking.

Speaker 4: I'll save it in my brain maybe.

Speaker 1: All right.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so basically people can post their jobs on the site.

Speaker 1: I'm sure you folks have seen the job postings channel on the Svelte Discord.

Speaker 1: And unfortunately, like the quality of submissions and like the replies to posts, not the best.

Speaker 1: Like it's very often low quality, like people that don't even read the

Speaker 4: text and stuff.

Speaker 4: Are you trying to take Svelte jobs from

Speaker 1: the...

Speaker 1: discord

Speaker 4: isn't it buddy and chris uh that do uh svelte jobs the

Speaker 1: yeah yeah but that that's that's

Speaker 1: another site that's a that's uh i know i knew what

Speaker 4: you were talking about i just like uh svelte jobs

Speaker 4: is a site but you can get the newsletter sent to you and like so are you trying to take that from

Speaker 4: them and put it on to the website i mean

Speaker 1: it depends on how you how you look at it it's definitely a

Speaker 1: competitor right of some

Speaker 4: sort first

Speaker 1: off i think there's definitely room for for more than one

Speaker 1: job board.

Speaker 1: But I've been talking about this job board for years.

Speaker 1: So I feel like it's fine.

Speaker 1: But yeah.

Speaker 1: So it is a bit of a competitor, but I think we can both manage.

Speaker 1: Anyway, so that's one feature.

Speaker 1: Another feature is companies can buy sponsor slots on the website.

Speaker 1: So that's interesting.

Speaker 1: And also there's a newsletter coming as well.

Speaker 3: Oh, that's great.

Speaker 2: RSS? Or without RSS?

Speaker 1: I haven't implemented RSS, but the idea is that the newsletters will be on the site as well.

Speaker 1: So you can go and read it in the feed. That's the idea at least.

Speaker 4: But it's

Speaker 1: not implemented yet. Sorry?

Speaker 4: Is there a way that we could go to Danny and maybe see if we could integrate what's new in Svelte?

Speaker 4: Because I know a while ago he was looking for help and wanting someone to do that.

Speaker 1: So I think the issue with like the, so for those that don't know, there's a Svelte newsletter that you can subscribe to.

Speaker 1: I think it's on Substack at the moment.

Speaker 1: But the issue is that like there's always this discussion that pops up about like, oh, where do we host the emailing list?

Speaker 1: Where do we do this?

Speaker 1: How do we do this?

Speaker 1: And blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1: And the issue isn't so much how to do it.

Speaker 1: it's more like deciding and having a lot of people in this in the svelte maintainers group decide on

Speaker 1: what to do

Speaker 2: because

Speaker 1: i don't think they can they can come to a decision on on what they want to do i

Speaker 1: think it's a huge missed opportunity to not have like a proper subscribe button on the on the

Speaker 1: svelte website for example but

Speaker 2: i mean it

Speaker 1: is what it is um

Speaker 2: but so i mean on svelte society if you're

Speaker 2: curating now like a feed of news then like putting those into a weekly or

Speaker 4: monthly

Speaker 2: email or

Speaker 4: i mean

Speaker 4: that's essentially what oh you mean the the post on svelte society yeah

Speaker 2: i mean

Speaker 4: because those are

Speaker 4: also

Speaker 2: news right i mean

Speaker 4: yeah you'll

Speaker 2: probably have to like hand curate and you can't just put in every

Speaker 2: post and i think

Speaker 4: no he's gonna claude curate

Speaker 2: of course no

Speaker 3: i didn't say which

Speaker 1: hand it was

Speaker 1: I actually used a package called betterSvelte email,

Speaker 1: which lets you write emails in Svelte.

Speaker 3: So you write

Speaker 1: like a Svelte,

Speaker 1: you write like a template using Svelte,

Speaker 1: and then you just pass in like props to it

Speaker 1: and it renders out in a

Speaker 4: proper email.

Speaker 4: That sounds awesome.

Speaker 4: Do you remember more from Stockholm?

Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 4: The one with the really cute mascot

Speaker 4: that's like a little

Speaker 1: smart.

Speaker 4: They were using Svelte

Speaker 4: and it's like an email template service.

Speaker 4: Our schools here use that now.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It was like one of the biggest newsletters for schools or something.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Wild.

Speaker 1: It's pretty crazy.

Speaker 1: But yeah, so going back to the Spell Society website,

Speaker 1: it's coming along nicely.

Speaker 1: I hope we get a lot of high-quality submissions and job postings

Speaker 1: and that more people use it as well.

Speaker 1: So the idea is to kind of create a sort of a flywheel situation where people get an account on the Svelte Society website to apply to a job, right?

Speaker 1: Because you need to log in and then you apply to the job, right?

Speaker 1: Using your profile.

Speaker 1: But then they also stay for the content.

Speaker 1: And somehow it's going to end up being a sustainable thing, right?

Speaker 1: So we can fund this long term.

Speaker 1: But we'll see.

Speaker 1: LLMs are going to take our jobs.

Speaker 1: So I'm not a doomer.

Speaker 1: I don't think anything's there.

Speaker 1: I mean, it definitely

Speaker 4: takes some jobs.

Speaker 4: I think it definitely will take some jobs,

Speaker 4: but I think developers who know what they're doing and can,

Speaker 4: like the LLM can't do it by themselves.

Speaker 4: So you're still going to need some developer oversight.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: All right.

Speaker 1: That's pretty much what I got about the Svelte Society website.

Speaker 4: Okay.

Speaker 4: You wanted

Speaker 1: to go on a tangent, Brittany.

Speaker 4: Yeah, the tangent I was going to go on is because I was saying that about being on a browser or on a MacBook or whatever, like all the different browsers and things.

Speaker 4: But Mozilla may be going away is what I hear.

Speaker 4: We all heard this.

Speaker 2: What?

Speaker 3: Haven't you said that

Speaker 2: for 10 years or something?

Speaker 2: What's new?

Speaker 4: So they released something about them like investing in AI.

Speaker 4: And it was probably just like clickbaity stuff.

Speaker 4: But somebody was saying like, oh, it was actually syntax.

Speaker 4: and it was just a short that I saw just flash by,

Speaker 4: but it was Wes and Scott talking Mozilla

Speaker 4: and like, because now they're like into this AI stuff

Speaker 4: and it was either this or they're just like gone.

Speaker 4: Like, so if this doesn't pan out for them,

Speaker 4: like it may just die out.

Speaker 4: - Ah, right.

Speaker 4: - I think it was a good take.

Speaker 2: I think in general, Firefox and Mozilla

Speaker 2: has always been like, hey, we're the nerdy guys.

Speaker 2: And

Speaker 3: the

Speaker 2: audience of them, I mean, she's totally fine.

Speaker 2: The audience of that is, please don't put AI into my product.

Speaker 2: And

Speaker 3: so then when Mozilla

Speaker 2: comes out and says, hey, we're going to love AI, then what's left?

Speaker 2: Who are you targeting?

Speaker 2: And they already got under the 2% usage, which is like a marker in the US because the government

Speaker 2: websites say that they support anything more than 2%.

Speaker 2: So essentially government websites don't support Firefox.

Speaker 4: What makes no support anything?

Speaker 4: Have you seen a government website in America?

Speaker 2: I've heard they're pretty brutal.

Speaker 4: They are the worst code you will ever see in your life.

Speaker 2: I've seen pretty bad code.

Speaker 2: My husband had one one time

Speaker 4: where you clicked into the input,

Speaker 4: and instead of allowing you to type on your keyboard,

Speaker 4: it had a keyboard.

Speaker 4: It popped up.

Speaker 4: What is

Speaker 3: this?

Speaker 1: It's pretty accessible, though, one could argue.

Speaker 1: Like, if you

Speaker 2: only have a mouse.

Speaker 2: I don't want to argue that, really?

Speaker 2: Like, really?

Speaker 2: that I

Speaker 3: need

Speaker 2: to try that gym tracking app out that you're building Kevin that's where your idea of

Speaker 2: accessibility then we need to know I mean I think I think that's that's an interesting idea about

Speaker 2: Mozilla we thought that Mozilla would die because the like the Google deal was being struck down by

Speaker 2: the government right they kept it alive in some court thing uh so we'll see

Speaker 4: they did yeah

Speaker 4: that's gone through with the government like trying to stop the monopolization of things like

Speaker 4: i feel like it's not following through

Speaker 2: right yeah they're following back and forth i

Speaker 1: think so with

Speaker 1: So my take would be, not having heard Scott and Wes's takes, is if they pivot to AI, they could potentially find a new audience

Speaker 4: and grow their ears of bass.

Speaker 1: That's their thinking, probably, right?

Speaker 4: I don't think it's

Speaker 1: going to happen, but

Speaker 4: that's probably what they're...

Speaker 4: Basically, their last hope is their

Speaker 1: lifeline

Speaker 4: of like, okay, we have to do this or we're just dead anyway.

Speaker 4: So why not try this?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: No, totally.

Speaker 2: So I think there's a counter view, well, not directly to that, but have you seen Vivaldi's, they did a video of this. Vivaldi is like this other

Speaker 1: from Norway.

Speaker 1: I have not, I haven't seen it.

Speaker 2: It's like very configurable browser. It's great for the power users. And they uploaded this post where it's like, this is our roadmap for 2006. And it's just the CEO coming out and saying, it's not AI.

Speaker 2: i love that so much that was so bold

Speaker 1: marketing yeah it was great

Speaker 2: and he really knew how to speak

Speaker 2: to his audience from

Speaker 4: the short that i said i mean obviously i'm not going to speak for wes and scott

Speaker 4: but wes was saying just that um oh i just lost my train of thought that um this is something that

Speaker 4: they probably had to do but um

Speaker 1: yeah i'm

Speaker 4: gonna have to come back to it i i can't remember

Speaker 4: a

Speaker 1: lot yeah it

Speaker 4: flew out of my brain i

Speaker 1: i think the the thing that people don't like about most of

Speaker 1: love is that they're one paying their ceo like insane amounts of money uh and it's like the

Speaker 1: numbers are just dropping so

Speaker 4: it's like how

Speaker 1: do you how do you actually justify that amount of money

Speaker 1: like i could see it if they were growing but yeah and there are all these other like services around

Speaker 1: like they they do did like a password didn't they do like a password thing for a while and then they

Speaker 1: did something like they they have all these like build their own

Speaker 3: other stuff

Speaker 1: yeah right right yeah

Speaker 1: so there's all this other stuff why not just focus on the web browser people actually like to use but

Speaker 4: i remember what it was now it's that it's

Speaker 1: good good

Speaker 4: for the web in general to have caution and so it's

Speaker 3: Absolutely.

Speaker 3: Other browsers

Speaker 4: around.

Speaker 4: I mean, what is Safari's percentage?

Speaker 4: I wonder.

Speaker 4: Does anyone

Speaker 1: know?

Speaker 1: Oh, it's a lot.

Speaker 1: Like, it's

Speaker 4: like 40

Speaker 3: % or something.

Speaker 3: Yeah,

Speaker 1: yeah.

Speaker 1: Because you have to think about all the iPhones in Safari.

Speaker 4: Is it because, are they using Safari?

Speaker 4: Or is it because, like, does it count if it's Chrome on

Speaker 1: iPhone?

Speaker 1: It counts as Safari, right?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 4: Oh, okay.

Speaker 4: That makes sense.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Because I'm using Chrome

Speaker 4: on my iPhone, but it's still Safari.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I think there's a couple of countries where they opened up that because of legal reasons.

Speaker 1: I don't remember which ones, but yeah.

Speaker 4: Interesting.

Speaker 1: I hope Firefox continues and lives on.

Speaker 2: Partly because I'm

Speaker 1: using a Firefox fork.

Speaker 2: I feel so torn about this, to be honest.

Speaker 2: Because I agree that having multiple people from different companies working towards making the web better is awesome.

Speaker 2: I mean, a Chrome-only web, I think that would be...

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: But also, I mean, it's just annoying to have to support three or four different browsers

Speaker 2: when I look at the support tables.

Speaker 2: Can I use this feature?

Speaker 2: No, you can't because this browser doesn't support it.

Speaker 2: So that's super annoying.

Speaker 2: And it looks like Firefox sort of people or the product lacking behind the other browsers

Speaker 2: at the moment.

Speaker 2: And so that just annoys me.

Speaker 4: Are any of the engines open sourced?

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 4: like they're all open source so spider monkey

Speaker 2: like

Speaker 4: all of those are like

Speaker 2: yeah so

Speaker 4: i mean is it the

Speaker 4: worst thing like i don't want firefox to die i i love firefox i actually stopped using it a little

Speaker 4: over a year ago because just i feel like companies really invest in chrome and like google products

Speaker 4: and then it's just all the more integrated all the apple like all of them like anytime you get

Speaker 4: in an ecosystem, like you just get a better experience, I feel like.

Speaker 4: But as long as the engines are open source and people can keep doing different browsers

Speaker 4: and different things, there may still be the competition piece of it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you could have forks of Chromium, right?

Speaker 1: But then, yeah.

Speaker 1: But you can't really control

Speaker 2: what you like, what the browser supports, right?

Speaker 2: If you're just forking Chromium.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: But what we did see, like when Microsoft, they went in and used Chromium on their edge,

Speaker 2: I mean, that has led to a lot of Microsoft people now being part of the steering committees and

Speaker 4: Microsoft

Speaker 2: contributing a lot to Chrome.

Speaker 2: So

Speaker 4: that kind of thing would be good.

Speaker 4: So if another company came along and but if Mozilla dies, does Spider Monkey go away?

Speaker 1: Probably long term, right?

Speaker 1: Because no one's going to keep working on it.

Speaker 1: So it's just going to fall behind more and more because

Speaker 3: there

Speaker 1: are new features added to Chrome and Safari.

Speaker 1: So

Speaker 3: maybe

Speaker 1: in 10 years, it's going to be one of those browsers that are just way, way behind.

Speaker 1: But I mean, we do have other browsers coming up, right?

Speaker 1: Like Lady Bird is a thing.

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2: That's wild.

Speaker 2: It's like five people or even less than five.

Speaker 2: That's like, let's do our own browser engine.

Speaker 4: Oh, they're building their own.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Like

Speaker 4: this one genius.

Speaker 2: You said Lady Bird.

Speaker 2: it's like

Speaker 4: ladybird johnson like the vice president's or the president's wife

Speaker 2: it's very

Speaker 4: ladybird johnson was ladybird was the name of uh uh i can't

Speaker 1: remember president johnson oh i see i

Speaker 1: see yeah oh that was where my interesting yeah no this is a browser and i mean there are a couple

Speaker 1: of other browsers as well like you have this uh is it servo that's also another one that's

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an engine that mostly by--

Speaker 2: Started by

Speaker 1: Mozilla,

Speaker 2: I think.

Speaker 2: And then they don't use it anyway, as far as I remember.

Speaker 2: No.

Speaker 4: So they're going to compete with themselves?

Speaker 1: I think maybe they tried to

Speaker 2: disrupt themselves.

Speaker 2: That's

Speaker 1: not

Speaker 2: unusual, that you need to do something new.

Speaker 2: I think it was a good idea.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Because the idea was to parallelize the layouting of CSS and stuff.

Speaker 1: So it would give you a pretty decent performance increase on the web.

Speaker 1: There is something weird happening

Speaker 4: with my computer, by the way, because now I can't even see the time.

Speaker 3: I'm like slowly trying

Speaker 4: to look at the time and it's not popping down.

Speaker 4: Like I

Speaker 3: probably need

Speaker 1: to.

Speaker 1: We have 10 minutes.

Speaker 1: I'm just putting it on my computer.

Speaker 1: I think.

Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, that would be good timing for me.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 4: All right.

Speaker 1: So should we move on to hot takes?

Speaker 3: Unpopular opinions,

Speaker 1: I guess we call them here.

Speaker 1: Does anyone want to go first?

Speaker 1: I can go if you guys don't have one.

Speaker 1: Yeah, LMs are here. We have to accept it. And we are in for a very bumpy ride. If you don't invest your time in how to use LMs, and particularly agents, I think you are going to be out of a job in four or five years if you're employed at the moment.

Speaker 3: That's scary.

Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3: Why

Speaker 1: would anyone hire someone that can output 50 points of something and then another person can output 400?

Speaker 1: Like,

Speaker 2: why?

Speaker 2: There's a lot of legacy enterprises that are building these huge enterprise systems for the military.

Speaker 2: And there's going to be a long time before they change that culture.

Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, sure.

Speaker 1: Like that, that, that is true. Like if, if you work in an enterprise company, that's like,

Speaker 1: that probably today isn't even using modern tooling, right. That's,

Speaker 3: it's,

Speaker 1: it's going to

Speaker 1: take them a while to, to adjust. But if you're in like a, more of a high velocity, uh, company,

Speaker 1: like, uh, any

Speaker 3: startup,

Speaker 1: any, um, then, then you're, you're, you're going to be toast.

Speaker 4: And I think if

Speaker 1: you're, if you're starting out as a developer, you definitely need to,

Speaker 1: to like

Speaker 4: understand i think it's going to get worse because of it too like startup culture is going to

Speaker 4: be even more like because you can use ai it's not like you can lay back and rest on your laurels you

Speaker 4: just got to keep using

Speaker 1: the right yeah you

Speaker 4: did like so

Speaker 1: it's

Speaker 4: gonna make it worse i think

Speaker 1: yeah i mean it

Speaker 1: could also lead to more jobs right because like the the cost of building something goes down so

Speaker 1: people can build more stuff i mean that's historically what

Speaker 2: has always happened when

Speaker 2: new

Speaker 1: technology

Speaker 2: came around we were all doomers and then it was actually more

Speaker 3: jobs uh we got more

Speaker 3: lawyers removes

Speaker 2: uh the need for librarians the

Speaker 4: uh interest rates

Speaker 2: have

Speaker 4: to go down and money has to

Speaker 4: be free again for ah so

Speaker 1: they have to be able to borrow

Speaker 4: money for free again and then there will

Speaker 4: be more jobs

Speaker 1: yeah we'll see what happens but that's my unpopular opinion i

Speaker 4: think i think that's a

Speaker 4: pretty like safe unpopular opinion because I think we all kind of agreed with that but yeah

Speaker 2: I do

Speaker 2: think I do think that the that if you're sitting here listening to us then you are in a perfect

Speaker 2: position to capitalize on this because there's going to

Speaker 3: be a lot of new developers

Speaker 2: coming in

Speaker 2: who are like fully dependent on AI and they will not be able to to do the last 20 but because you

Speaker 2: have written code before you can do the combination of your own skill set and I think that's

Speaker 4: going to be.

Speaker 4: And another thing we didn't mention in this, if you haven't heard of the Svelte MCP server

Speaker 4: and you are using AI, make sure that you go and you look that up.

Speaker 4: Someone just told me about it a couple of weeks ago and I integrated it into Cloud and

Speaker 4: it just, it really helps.

Speaker 4: It like puts the documentation right in the AI agent and makes them write better Svelte

Speaker 4: code.

Speaker 4: So make sure that you're doing that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's great using it all the time.

Speaker 1: Well, I'm not, but

Speaker 4: my

Speaker 1: agents are.

Speaker 1: Like, I had 10, no, nine parallel agents working on, like, tickets for this gym tracking app.

Speaker 1: Like, that's

Speaker 4: crazy.

Speaker 1: Like, just like.

Speaker 4: Do you have these

Speaker 1: integrated

Speaker 4: in yours?

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: Yeah,

Speaker 4: that's another one that I've got.

Speaker 4: And it's great with context switching and making sure that you don't get the amnesia.

Speaker 4: I think we've talked

Speaker 1: about that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to stop with the AI LLM doomerism.

Speaker 1: Sorry.

Speaker 4: Well, in light of today's episode, and since we've been talking about AI so much, I asked

Speaker 4: Claude to give me a hot tech take.

Speaker 4: And

Speaker 3: Claude says,

Speaker 4: TypeScript's right system has become its own form of technical debt.

Speaker 4: And

Speaker 3: I actually agree

Speaker 4: with that.

Speaker 4: I like that.

Speaker 3: I think it is.

Speaker 4: I think creating all of these types and like we have it all the time in our code base where something is strictly typed and it's required.

Speaker 4: And then you get this new form of data where that piece is not required anymore.

Speaker 4: And then you have to go back and you have to like look at your types again. Like, is this type right? And I don't know. It's like its own form.

Speaker 4: It really is its own form of technical debt. Like it's just another thing to like take care of and look at

Speaker 1: and organize.

Speaker 1: I mean, it comes with upsides, right?

Speaker 1: But it is boilerplate.

Speaker 1: Or like,

Speaker 4: it does

Speaker 1: make you have to write more code.

Speaker 1: Definitely.

Speaker 4: What I wish is that, I mean, we have the API side.

Speaker 4: Why can the API not just give me its typing?

Speaker 4: There are

Speaker 1: solutions for that.

Speaker 4: I'm sure there are.

Speaker 1: At the place where I used to consult, like last year, we used to do that.

Speaker 1: Like we had a.NET backend and then we generated a TypeScript client from that.

Speaker 3: but there

Speaker 1: were there were some issues because some something about nullables not

Speaker 3: being a

Speaker 1: thing of

Speaker 1: course and then it just became a pain so you had to like use uh i don't remember what it's called

Speaker 1: in typescript but you know the the exclamation mark at the end

Speaker 2: to

Speaker 4: like say

Speaker 1: i i know

Speaker 4: no it's basically

Speaker 1: like i i know that this is basically

Speaker 4: oh okay it's

Speaker 1: painful

Speaker 4: but it's

Speaker 1: better than nothing

Speaker 4: it's better than js doc in my opinion i do like that js docs are like in the code and you don't

Speaker 4: have to compile it and build it and all that but i yeah i can't write it it's ugly

Speaker 1: good thing you don't have to write write it so much exactly i should

Speaker 4: if you're going back through it i don't like that it's well

Speaker 2: actually does

Speaker 4: the same thing but

Speaker 2: Are you still working on a library primary? Because like library types are usually way more gnarly than application types.

Speaker 4: So I own the design system piece, but most of that is done at this point and it's just maintenance and I'm more working on the feature side of the front end now.

Speaker 2: I see. Okay.

Speaker 2: So I also have a hot take that's not about all that.

Speaker 2: More screen real estate is better.

Speaker 2: It feels to me like whenever I see someone talk about their desktop setup or what to do, they're all like, I just work on my MacBook with like nine inch screen and it's perfect.

Speaker 2: And if you have more than that, you're stupid.

Speaker 2: And I just love my huge screens.

Speaker 2: I love that I can have

Speaker 3: four size

Speaker 2: windows open and that I can look at my browser and my terminal.

Speaker 2: I look at my editor.

Speaker 2: I can even look at the console at the same time.

Speaker 2: And I will hurt my neck because I look in

Speaker 3: this curved

Speaker 2: 180 degrees.

Speaker 2: But that's a future Jeb's problem.

Speaker 2: And I can't deal with him right now.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you have work to do, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: I can have pain when I get old.

Speaker 2: So I'm just saying, I have two ultra-wide curved monitors

Speaker 2: next to each other.

Speaker 2: And it's fantastic.

Speaker 2: I

Speaker 1: love it.

Speaker 1: Two ultra-wides?

Speaker 4: Oh my God.

Speaker 3: You have to take a picture

Speaker 1: of this.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 4: I used to be you.

Speaker 4: I used to, so I had two 36, 32 inch monitors adjacent to each other and like on these movable

Speaker 4: things so I could move them and had that.

Speaker 4: And sometimes I would even put my Mac book next to it and use it as a screen.

Speaker 4: But I think I've become the opposite now.

Speaker 4: And I don't know if that's part of the thing of where I'm just like focused and doing my

Speaker 4: work.

Speaker 4: And so I use the three finger swipe on MacBooks to swipe between full screen.

Speaker 4: So I have one of my browser, one of my code, and I just swipe back and forth.

Speaker 4: And that's all I need.

Speaker 3: And it's kind of focused

Speaker 4: for me.

Speaker 4: And I think I'm I think I may have always had ADHD that's undiagnosed.

Speaker 4: And as I get older and the kids get older, it's becoming worse, which is why, like, the thoughts just fly out of my head like they did earlier.

Speaker 4: Like I have I can't remember anything anymore.

Speaker 4: and I need

Speaker 4: like that little

Speaker 4: I mean it's a

Speaker 1: you need the forced focus

Speaker 1: it's not 9 inches

Speaker 4: like the Switch

Speaker 1: 2 screen

Speaker 4: I get mad playing on the Switch 2 screen

Speaker 4: and the Switch 2 is bigger than the Switch 1

Speaker 4: but the Switch 2 screen is too small

Speaker 4: for me so I get it from that perspective

Speaker 2: at some point I'm going to get VR

Speaker 2: glasses and then I can just have as many

Speaker 2: screens as I want all over it

Speaker 4: Kevin used to do that

Speaker 1: I mean I do have two Apple Vision Pros

Speaker 3: two of them

Speaker 4: What do you need to do?

Speaker 4: Do you have four

Speaker 2: eyes?

Speaker 2: It's an accident.

Speaker 1: With glasses, I have four eyes.

Speaker 2: It's an accident.

Speaker 2: So you just fell over and Abba was in prison.

Speaker 2: No,

Speaker 3: it's

Speaker 2: a

Speaker 1: long story.

Speaker 1: I'll tell you about it sometime.

Speaker 1: But I think we are running out of time here.

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, we are.

Speaker 1: Brittany, you have to run to get your kid to

Speaker 4: get your trish.

Speaker 4: To a doctor's appointment.

Speaker 4: And then we're

Speaker 1: driving to

Speaker 4: Chicago.

Speaker 4: And then I'm going to Hawaii.

Speaker 1: Oh, wow.

Speaker 1: That sounds awful.

Speaker 1: I wish

Speaker 4: everyone could see how much

Speaker 4: White garbage is outside

Speaker 1: My window

Speaker 4: right now it's so nasty

Speaker 4: I'm so ready to be out of this place

Speaker 1: Yeah

Speaker 1: You have to take some pictures

Speaker 4: Of Hawaii or

Speaker 1: I mean Hawaii

Speaker 2: We've all seen this now do the Hawaii thing

Speaker 4: Okay I will take Hawaii and I will see them

Speaker 1: Alright so we

Speaker 1: Will have to do pics next week I guess

Speaker 1: So with that said

Speaker 1: Thank you all for listening and it's

Speaker 1: Super fun to be doing this again.

Speaker 1: We finally managed to find a time.

Speaker 2: And now

Speaker 3: I

Speaker 1: think we can do this.

Speaker 3: I'm hyping myself

Speaker 2: up.

Speaker 2: I think we're going to do this every week.

Speaker 2: Now that we can build websites, we can also schedule.

Speaker 2: I think it's going to be amazing.

Speaker 1: So I've asked Claude to build

Speaker 5: a website now.

Speaker 5: I hate you.

Speaker 5: I hate you.

Speaker 5: All right.

Speaker 5: Goodbye, everyone.

Speaker 3: See you.

Speaker 5: See you.