Kevin: welcome to svelte radio hello everyone welcome to another episode of svelte radio

Kevin: long time no see

Kevin: Brittany Anthony hello

Brittney: hello

Brittney: last episode

Kevin: like last year

Kevin: I think

Brittney: you did a couple

Brittney: right like

Kevin: a couple conferences

Brittney: but the three of us I think

Brittney: it's been

Kevin: almost a year probably

Kevin: we've got the gang back together now

Brittney: yeah finally things

Kevin: have

Kevin: happened in Svelte World in our world

Brittney: I

Kevin: don't think anything's really

Antony: happened

Antony: I think it just paused

Antony: with us

Antony: yeah probably

Antony: we're the people

Kevin: just bringing everything

Kevin: forward in the Svelte world right

Kevin: without

Antony: us

Brittney: driven

Antony: by radio

Kevin: but we were at a conference

Kevin: we met at

Antony: a conference

Antony: again that was fun

Kevin: it was called Svelte Summit

Kevin: for those that are in to know

Kevin: that's the place

Brittney: to be

Brittney: and Spain was amazing incredible

Brittney: it

Antony: was

Antony: very grungy

Kevin: venue

Kevin: it was it was a great

Antony: it was rustic it was great vinnie i

Kevin: really like it was rustic i

Brittney: thought it

Brittney: was really pretty

Antony: i kind of wanted it as a house

Kevin: very pretty just just got just scared me a bit

Kevin: when the when their ceiling was leaking

Antony: just barely

Kevin: missed the audio and video gear

Antony: yeah

Kevin: it was fine and the toilet paper ran out and yeah there

Brittney: were like issues with the staff and

Brittney: management but we made it and we got through yeah it was great and it was good it was

Kevin: i i would say

Kevin: it was more fun than stockholm in a sense like stockholm was fun because it was the first time

Kevin: we got to meet everyone kind of

Brittney: that's true for

Kevin: me at least but then then this this time was just

Kevin: like meeting everyone again which was a lot of fun so but

Antony: it was very difficult like stockholm we had

Antony: this reserved place that was just took us all in and then we just chatted afterwards whereas

Antony: we ran around the whole of Spain

Antony: it felt like the whole of Spain afterwards

Brittney: I did run around the whole of Spain

Brittney: afterwards

Brittney: you really did

Brittney: we were

Antony: just trying to find one bar that would get us in

Antony: and basically try and sneak some people in

Antony: and then sort of filter people in

Antony: bit by bit so they didn't know it was a massive crowd

Antony: because they didn't want a massive crowd

Antony: so just get four people in

Antony: and then get them ordering drinks

Antony: and then oh there's four more people here

Antony: have some drinks

Antony: and then eventually 40 something people turn up

Antony: maybe six they're coming around and then they're like oh we have we have been played we have been

Kevin: played surely they they like it when people show up to their venue so they

Brittney: can sell their

Kevin: products

Kevin: right

Brittney: not american tourists when they're

Kevin: going through like a

Brittney: i see protest

Kevin: a rebel tourism

Kevin: people

Brittney: yeah yeah we

Kevin: are very rowdy i guess you're not american

Brittney: i just i said that sorry like there

Brittney: were quite a

Brittney: well I guess there

Brittney: were a lot of

Brittney: Americans that were

Brittney: there yeah yeah

Brittney: it's

Antony: nice not having

Antony: people talk about

Antony: British tourists for

Antony: once to be honest

Brittney: oh no we

Antony: are

Antony: definitely the worst

Antony: but it's nice that

Antony: it wasn't the

Antony: default that's quite

Antony: good

Brittney: I don't know

Brittney: every time

Kevin: I go to

Kevin: Hungary to visit

Kevin: friends I always hear

Kevin: about people

Kevin: complaining about

Kevin: British stag doos

Antony: yeah yeah

Kevin: yeah

Kevin: my

Antony: stag do was

Antony: Hungary I didn't

Antony: know if my stag do

Antony: was indeed in

Antony: really and it

Antony: It was in Hungary because,

Brittney: yeah,

Antony: because what's stag do?

Brittney: Yeah.

Brittney: It's like a bachelor party.

Antony: When you get married, it's like a bachelor party.

Brittney: It's like a stag party.

Brittney: Okay.

Brittney: Yeah.

Antony: It is a stag party.

Antony: It's not like a stag party.

Antony: It really is.

Antony: I just think stag

Brittney: do sounded very.

Antony: Oh, I see you.

Antony: I didn' know what you

Brittney: were talking about.

Antony: Do you know

Brittney: what do

Antony: is?

Brittney: No.

Brittney: I know.

Brittney: I've just heard the stag

Antony: do.

Antony: Maybe that's a Britishism.

Antony: So a do is party.

Antony: So, like, are we going to your birthday do?

Antony: It means going to your birthday party.

Antony: It

Brittney: does not sound like a party.

Brittney: I don't know why.

Antony: You know, it's a to-do.

Antony: I don't know.

Antony: I have no idea why it's called a do, but it's called a do.

Antony: We always call them do's.

Brittney: It sounds like a doo-doo.

Antony: Are you going to what's the space as do?

Brittney: Yeah.

Kevin: But, yeah, it was great.

Kevin: It was great.

Kevin: Spell Summit.

Kevin: I am looking forward to next year.

Antony: Spell do.

Antony: We've got a Spell do.

Kevin: Do we have a

Brittney: place yet?

Kevin: No, I'm still waiting for the tax registration stuff.

Kevin: It's a bit on me, to be fair.

Kevin: I've not really had the mental capacity to do stuff lately.

Brittney: I was going to say, you're not busy at all.

Kevin: No.

Kevin: No.

Kevin: Can I recommend Hungary?

Kevin: I mean, I would love that.

Kevin: It is.

Kevin: It

Brittney: is nice.

Brittney: I've never been to Hungary.

Antony: The draw of Hungary is it has a lot of spas and baths and, you know,

Antony: places you can go and have, like, sit in a big heated pool and stuff.

Antony: It's great fun.

Kevin: Yeah, it is very nice.

Kevin: Are

Brittney: they clothed?

Antony: Yes.

Antony: Not all of them.

Kevin: Not all of them.

Brittney: That might be awkward.

Brittney: I

Kevin: saw an advertisement for something called a Sparty.

Kevin: That's a party at a spa.

Kevin: Spoo.

Brittney: Spoo.

Brittney: Spadu.

Brittney: Spadu.

Kevin: Spadu.

Kevin: Spadu.

Brittney: Spadu.

Brittney: This is

Kevin: going to go all

Brittney: episodes.

Brittney: Yeah.

Brittney: Welcome back, guys.

Brittney: You're welcome.

Brittney: Yeah.

Kevin: We're just catching up.

Kevin: We haven't really chatted a

Brittney: lot, the

Kevin: three of us.

Kevin: So it's fun.

Kevin: I'm hoping the audience also enjoys it a bit.

Brittney: But let's

Kevin: maybe talk a bit about the Svelte Radio plans going forward.

Kevin: I would want this to happen once a week

Kevin: if we can do it

Kevin: maybe not

Kevin: maybe we will, maybe we won't

Kevin: but hopefully more frequent

Kevin: than the last year or so

Antony: this is the first

Antony: you have just told us of this by the way

Kevin: yes

Brittney: we are finding out

Brittney: I

Kevin: mean to be fair

Kevin: I did ask you like what time

Kevin: every week would kind of work

Kevin: you dropped it

Brittney: in

Kevin: there

Kevin: he's real

Brittney: too yeah and then we missed like two weeks of that because life is chaos so

Kevin: yeah yeah i i for those that don't know i i i have a newborn he's he's just over five weeks now

Kevin: wow and it's it's it's a lot of it's a lot of uh work mostly mentally for me i mean it's it's

Kevin: worse physically for my girlfriend probably because she has to do all the feeding and the stuff um

Kevin: Yeah.

Kevin: So basically, I guess, she's taking care of the baby, I'm taking care of her.

Brittney: Yeah, that makes sense.

Brittney: That is the role.

Kevin: Right.

Kevin: For now, at least.

Kevin: Yeah.

Kevin: So, yeah, I've been, I haven't, honestly, I haven't touched any code for like a month.

Kevin: Because I've just been so tired.

Kevin: As you shouldn't,

Brittney: right?

Brittney: Like, you take paternity leave.

Brittney: Right.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, that is true.

Kevin: But, you know, I kind of like coding, you

Brittney: know.

Brittney: We all like coding, but there's

Antony: priorities.

Antony: The thing is, I mean, five weeks is a really hard bit.

Antony: Like the first couple of months are just ridiculous.

Antony: I'm glad I don't have to go through that.

Antony: You know, I

Kevin: think another thing is it's our first, right?

Kevin: So I assume as you have more of them, you're kind of just like,

Brittney: eh,

Kevin: it'll work out.

Brittney: I mean, you know what's going to happen.

Brittney: That doesn't make it better the second time.

Kevin: well in terms of like you maybe you don't worry about everything all the time like

Kevin: for me

Brittney: it was a struggle

Kevin: okay all right

Brittney: i mean you do you

Antony: do but you prioritize your worrying

Antony: you prioritize your worrying that's what happens you you worry about a smaller breadth of things

Antony: but you worry in more depth about this

Brittney: anthony do you want to explain for the audience why you have

Brittney: tape on your head?

Antony: Well, no one can see the tape on my head, but

Antony: I had a piece of hair

Brittney: sticking out. We definitely

Brittney: can.

Antony: Well, we can,

Antony: but the audience won't,

Kevin: because we're not recording

Kevin: the video.

Brittney: Oh!

Brittney: I thought we were recording video, so...

Antony: No, no.

Antony: I just

Brittney: let the cat out of the bag.

Antony: There was a piece of

Antony: hair sticking out, and it's gone in.

Antony: I see it worked. See?

Brittney: Editor can cut that out, I guess.

Brittney: It did work. I've been taking

Kevin: a screenshot.

Antony: It did work.

Antony: table screen shut it's gone

Kevin: it's finished

Antony: the hair is back to well it's about to normal

Brittney: yes i

Brittney: changed

Antony: i changed hairdresser as

Kevin: well ah that's the reason for the

Kevin: the hair sticking out though

Brittney: you have a regular hairdresser

Brittney: i used to i

Kevin: used to

Kevin: i actually do as well but anyway should we talk about something oh that's hurting

Kevin: So for those that can't see, Brittany just got a piercing in the ear, I think.

Kevin: Yeah, I got two ear piercings

Brittney: yesterday to match my 12-year-old daughter so we could clean them and hers will not get infected this time.

Brittney: I also have the same piercings on the other side, so it's called a conch and a helix piercing.

Kevin: And then I had headphones on them and it

Brittney: hurt.

Kevin: Yeah, so now you're just wearing one headphone.

Kevin: Well, half of a headphone.

Kevin: Half of a headphone.

Kevin: Pair of headphones?

Antony: Oh, it's not a pair.

Kevin: Right?

Kevin: How

Antony: did you miss the two

Brittney: agents?

Kevin: So in terms of Svelte, what have you guys been up to?

Kevin: Are you working with Svelte?

Kevin: Are you excited?

Kevin: I don't know.

Kevin: I am.

Brittney: I've actually been getting to use Svelte 5 for the first time.

Brittney: Well, not for the first time, but regularly for the first time.

Brittney: And it's been great.

Brittney: brand new

Antony: code base.

Antony: Sounds

Kevin: like fun.

Brittney: It's golden.

Antony: It's interesting that, yeah, you're just using

Antony: Spark 5 and in reality, I guess

Antony: I too am just using Spark 5 now

Antony: because, you know, in the

Antony: real world, you can't move as fast as the core team

Antony: can or the people with hobby projects

Antony: or side projects or whatever else

Antony: they've got. So you end up

Antony: just on a

Kevin: bit of an old lot.

Kevin: I know.

Kevin: Aren't you the CTO of your company?

Antony: Yeah.

Antony: to make money.

Antony: Priority.

Antony: Yeah, I

Brittney: was going to say,

Brittney: you have users

Brittney: and you have to

Kevin: keep things

Brittney: flowing and working.

Brittney: And

Kevin: what better way

Kevin: of using a fast,

Kevin: modern framework

Kevin: that can make

Kevin: the user experience better?

Antony: You know,

Antony: we still have production apps,

Antony: so half of our biggest app

Antony: at Live is still using SAPA.

Brittney: Oh, that's hilarious.

Antony: And it's still fast.

Antony: It's still fast.

Antony: It works, you know.

Antony: But the thing is,

Antony: yeah, we also just started

Antony: using SAP5

Antony: because we hired Puru, which you

Brittney: may have to know.

Brittney: Oh, goodness.

Antony: And so I get him to do Svelte now rather than me, actually.

Antony: But the thing is, one of his main tasks, really, for us

Antony: is to move all the stuff from Saffron to SvelteKit,

Antony: and then it was subgrade from SvelteKit and Svelte4

Antony: to the latest SvelteKit and Svelte5.

Antony: And it wasn't the world's smoothest journey, I'll be honest,

Antony: but we're now on Svelte5, we're in the latest SvelteKit,

Antony: but we still have a bunch of stuff in Sapa, which we are migrating across.

Antony: But it's exciting, yeah, because I mean, I have to admit,

Antony: I was a person who I didn't particularly like the look of runes.

Antony: I remember the first meeting where we started talking about

Antony: what Svelte 5 would be, and I was pretty against the whole idea.

Antony: And I certainly made everyone aware on the call that I wasn't against it.

Antony: And there was this kind of movement, sort of, yeah,

Antony: it doesn't make sense to change everything

Antony: and then a little bit swayed back the other way

Antony: and Rich is like what if this happened, what if this happened

Antony: and him and Dom are kind of discussing

Antony: what this could look like

Antony: and it starts to look a little bit more

Antony: a little bit less felty let's say

Antony: a little bit more like a set of

Antony: imports and

Antony: a set of

Antony: functions

Antony: that you call to make state rather than having

Antony: state kind of implicit in the language

Antony: and I didn't like that so I wasn't excited

Antony: about moving to it. But now I've started using it and I can see and you have to really use it

Antony: to see the value in what's been done. It's like,

Brittney: yeah,

Antony: actually, this is this is actually

Antony: it's objectively better, but I can see how it's more intimidating for a newcomer still.

Antony: So my original fear wasn't unfounded, but certainly

Brittney: I

Antony: can now see advantages.

Brittney: I agree 100%. I think you have to use it to see the benefits of it. But now that I'm using it too,

Brittney: It's like you can see just how much easier some things are and

Brittney: how much better things work.

Brittney: So, yeah, I

Brittney: agree with that.

Brittney: And I

Kevin: was very against

Brittney: it.

Brittney: Yeah, same.

Kevin: I've been working with it for probably like six or seven months now.

Antony: Oh, wow.

Antony: Okay.

Kevin: At like the place I was at before.

Kevin: And I like it.

Kevin: There are just like some stuff that is a bit foot gunny.

Kevin: Like if you're comparing objects in arrays,

Kevin: since it's like a proxy object

Kevin: and then you're comparing it with something else,

Kevin: you have to kind of, what do you call it?

Kevin: Work around that a bit.

Kevin: Because before you could just like compare the objects

Kevin: because they have the same reference,

Kevin: but now they're different references.

Kevin: So it's not really the same object you're comparing

Kevin: if you're like doing a duplication of something.

Kevin: Yeah.

Kevin: And you want to compare maybe like a, what would you call it?

Kevin: Like the default object.

Kevin: And then if you make a change,

Kevin: and then you want to see which objects in an array has changed,

Kevin: something like that.

Kevin: So that's a bit irritating.

Antony: But it's just the nature

Kevin: of proxies.

Antony: Yeah, well, I think one of the things about, you know,

Antony: it's like Java kind of nailed it a long time ago,

Antony: And it's a shame that JavaScript and ES6 didn't follow that pattern if they could.

Antony: But the whole two-string function and the overriding of that function

Antony: to build your own equality model is great.

Antony: And I love that in Java.

Antony: I think it's really good.

Antony: It would be amazing if there was something similar in JavaScript.

Kevin: I'm not familiar with that.

Kevin: What is that?

Antony: Well, if you compare two objects in Java, what it does is it uses...

Antony: It might not be two-string.

Antony: I might have got mixed up here because I learned about it when I was using Groovy,

Antony: but essentially it has a method.

Antony: If you type equals, equals, equals, or the equivalent equals, equals,

Antony: or dot equals on it, what it will do is it first of all calls that method,

Antony: which then generates any makeup of that object that you want for comparison.

Antony: So if it's an object full of all sorts of crazy stuff,

Antony: but actually you want to say something's different if it contains one property,

Antony: which is a number that's different or a Boolean true or false,

Brittney: You

Antony: can make your equals or two string or whatever method it's called.

Antony: Just compare, just return those two.

Speaker 5: So

Antony: that one property.

Antony: And so you can say they're not equal or they are equal

Antony: based on purely what that method returns.

Antony: So you're really comparing the app by that method.

Brittney: And I think

Antony: that'll be, it was great in Groovy.

Antony: It was great in Java.

Antony: I think it would be great in JavaScript or ES6.

Antony: It would fit nicely.

Antony: ESM.

Antony: What are we even calling it nowadays?

Antony: What's it called?

Kevin: ECMAScript.

Antony: Yeah, ECMAScript.

Kevin: I don't know.

Antony: Who knows?

Kevin: You know, JavaScript is owned by Oracle, right?

Brittney: Yeah, yeah.

Brittney: That's

Brittney: true.

Brittney: Right.

Kevin: So you have to be careful here.

Kevin: Might be

Brittney: good soon.

Brittney: Yeah, you became the richest man in the world, like, last week, right?

Kevin: Yeah, right.

Kevin: With the idea.

Antony: They also own Java.

Kevin: Right.

Antony: They own the JVM and made it proprietary.

Antony: But luckily, people forked it and made an open JDK before that.

Antony: Oracle are slightly famous for doing this.

Kevin: They're also slightly famous for being a bit anti...

Kevin: I don't know what you would even call it,

Kevin: but they don't have the best reputation, probably.

Antony: No.

Antony: Anti-not-suing people for no obvious reason.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah.

Kevin: Do you guys want to talk about what's new and Svelte?

Kevin: All

Brittney: this remote function stuff?

Brittney: To be fair, I don't really know what's new and Svelte.

Kevin: Right.

Brittney: And

Kevin: isn't there a

Brittney: show

Brittney: called What's New in Svelte

Brittney: that we do every week?

Antony: There is actually, yes.

Kevin: You can watch that on YouTube.

Kevin: Yeah.

Kevin: No, but there's remote functions

Kevin: and they just came to SvelteKit as well,

Kevin: I think, with SSR support.

Kevin: So now we can actually ditch the load function.

Kevin: Oh, okay.

Kevin: You can tell me about those

Brittney: because I don't know about this.

Kevin: Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah. Oh, you haven't seen the remote function stuff?

Brittney: No.

Antony: I haven't used them. I'm obviously aware of them, but I haven't used them.

Antony: Yeah,

Kevin: I haven't had that much time to use them yet either,

Kevin: but I just watched the video that Simon did.

Kevin: I don't know if you've seen it.

Brittney: Oh, I heard about that.

Kevin: He goes through some examples and shows you what you can do.

Kevin: And it looks really nice.

Brittney: It looks really,

Kevin: really nice.

Kevin: Especially if you're working in a situation where you're like in your load function where you're pulling in multiple things.

Kevin: And then you might just want to refresh one of them instead of like running the whole load function.

Kevin: You would just like fetch the specific data.

Kevin: If that makes sense.

Kevin: It's a lot more granular.

Kevin: And it's also like more tied to your component rather than your page.

Kevin: So you can kind of reuse logic on different pages by just reusing the component instead of the load function.

Kevin: Yeah,

Brittney: I

Brittney: would

Kevin: highly recommend watching the video.

Kevin: It's live on our YouTube channel.

Kevin: It's about society.

Kevin: If you haven't seen it, been to the channel, you should go there and check it out.

Kevin: Especially the video.

Kevin: It's very good.

Kevin: But yeah, that's about the amount of knowledge I have about remote functions at the time.

Brittney: I know there are different

Kevin: ones.

Kevin: It's like the query one where you fetch data.

Kevin: There's a command one where you tell the server to do something.

Kevin: And then there's the form one as well, I think.

Kevin: And also a pre-render one, if I remember correctly.

Kevin: So you can fetch data and just pre-render it at build.

Kevin: Or fetch the data at build.

Kevin: push it into time. That sounds really

Brittney: interesting. That's actually what I was going to say earlier

Brittney: is that we have a fairly new code base that we started this year. And we started,

Brittney: I feel like back in April, and we had I had to upgrade to get access to attachments,

Brittney: I wanted to use attachments. And then I'm like, Oh, we are

Brittney: not on

Brittney: the version that I can use that.

Brittney: So it moves so fast. Like, I can't keep up, I actually have to take a break soon just to

Brittney: do upgrades we did a v upgrade last week and

Antony: oh yeah i

Brittney: don't think that broke anything but we'll

Brittney: see

Antony: yeah i i definitely upgraded us to v test from whatever else we're using in one of the monor

Antony: repos that definitely broke things that was a mistake i

Brittney: am i actually started doing all of my

Brittney: testing in storybook i know hepe has

Brittney: done videos and

Brittney: like worked with uh um what's new and spell i

Brittney: think he did one of those too but storybook has come a long way and

Brittney: the testing in it uses

Brittney: v test

Brittney: under the hood so i

Brittney: just write the

Brittney: story and everything just right together and then you also

Brittney: have that visual piece so you can see your test run what step it's

Brittney: on everything's

Brittney: just right there

Brittney: in your story it's really cool nice yeah

Kevin: yeah storybook is like i think we talked about this

Kevin: at Sotsummit, but like

Brittney: I remember

Kevin: when Storybook

Kevin: just came out, and it's just

Kevin: like, honestly, and

Kevin: I...

Brittney: They know this.

Brittney: I think they know this,

Kevin: but

Kevin: the developer experience, complete trash,

Kevin: right?

Brittney: Especially for Spel.

Brittney: You would just run into issues

Kevin: everywhere.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly. But even for

Kevin: like React in the beginning,

Kevin: it was not

Antony: that... It was very heavy.

Antony: It was very heavy as well. And I think

Antony: that, you know,

Antony: It was at the point where Rick, So, and Co, I think, started writing their own Svensha.

Brittney: Yeah, there were, like, lots of different ones for a while.

Brittney: Like, Scott Dominski had one, and there was

Brittney: a VEAT-based one.

Brittney: Yeah,

Kevin: a VEAT book

Brittney: or something.

Brittney: And there were a few.

Kevin: Yeah, but now it's, like, it's all forgiven, because now it's great.

Brittney: Yeah, now it's great.

Kevin: No, but seriously, they've made really good progress.

Kevin: And it is really nice to use.

Brittney: You

Kevin: just have to make sure that your team actually keeps using it.

Kevin: So it

Brittney: doesn't get

Kevin: out of sync.

Kevin: It's just me and one other

Brittney: developer.

Brittney: And I do all the design system stuff.

Brittney: So Storybook and all that stuff is done by me.

Brittney: So I'm the only one.

Brittney: Just make sure

Brittney: I keep my documentation updated.

Brittney: So in case they lay me

Brittney: off like every

Brittney: other company I've worked for.

Brittney: sad but true

Brittney: yeah well no

Kevin: granger didn't lay me off

Brittney: but

Brittney: yeah it is it feels like it's just crazy right now the

Brittney: work place environment with

Kevin: ai like

Brittney: taking everything over and

Kevin: it's just i i read i read

Kevin: about on hacker news there there was a thread about there was a study about how like how much

Kevin: so they defined this as work slop it was work generated by ai that looks

Brittney: like

Kevin: it is good work

Kevin: but is actually bad

Brittney: and it takes apparently

Kevin: it takes up so much time from from other people having

Kevin: to like go through all this like for example like if one person generates work slop then some other

Kevin: receiving person would have to like check that work and make sure that it's good and

apparently

Brittney: that takes

Kevin: a lot of time.

Antony: It takes more time

Antony: than you want to write it

Antony: the first time yourself.

Antony: Exactly.

Antony: Yeah.

Kevin: Especially with the back and forth,

Kevin: right?

Kevin: If you have the AI

Kevin: write some stuff

Kevin: and then someone has to review it,

Kevin: maybe they're reviewing it with AI.

Kevin: Yeah.

Kevin: Think about like Copilot

Brittney: suggested first thing

Brittney: on GitHub now.

Kevin: Like every time

Antony: you put a PR in.

Antony: Yeah.

Antony: This is exactly how you end up

Antony: with no product.

Antony: Yeah.

Antony: But it's

Kevin: like, it's very good.

Kevin: Like I've been working on the, on the News Felt Society website.

Kevin: It's probably going live soon.

Kevin: I'm not going to promise anything

Brittney: like it at Svelte Summit.

Kevin: So, but Kareem just finished fixing a bug.

Kevin: So now, now it's like, we're actually ready to start importing stuff.

Kevin: So it should

Brittney: happen.

Kevin: And I'm actually also hiring someone to, to moderate.

Kevin: So if someone listening to this is interested, the pay won't be that good.

Kevin: you'll you'll have like a lot

Brittney: of fun you get the the pay of the community loving you and thank you

Brittney: exactly yes

Kevin: yes we pay you in what's it called when when people want to pay designers in

Kevin: like eyeballs or something like

Brittney: oh in views yeah yeah

Kevin: yeah no but there will be there there'll be

Kevin: like actual pay but it just won't be like a developer pay right because it's not a developer

Kevin: job it's it's mostly admin work yeah but yeah uh what was i saying oh right yeah with the ai stuff

Kevin: um so i used a lot of cloud code for for the new website and like it's it's very good at doing like

Kevin: the very, very boilerplate-y stuff that I don't want to do myself, that just repeats across

Kevin: multiple pages and stuff like that. I used it to generate a pretty nice admin graphical user

Kevin: interface, so I don't have to use Pocketbase or Firebase or something like that. And it works

Kevin: great um but i that's like hidden away from from the users right it's only like the admins and the

Kevin: editors and the moderators that would be using this gui so for that it's

Brittney: fine and

Kevin: it's fine if

Kevin: there are like a couple of bugs in there because who cares well yeah

Brittney: i've only tried a couple i've

Brittney: i tried chat gpt and it was absolutely awful at anything

Brittney: called related and claude

Brittney: is the first

Brittney: one that I found that will consistently write spelt code it occasionally will do like a dollar

Brittney: sign colon thing or something and I'll just tell it and it will fix it but

Brittney: what I found

Brittney: with Claude

Brittney: is that because it has that Claude.markdown file it can like you can put things in there about your

Brittney: work how you work whatever your system is that you use and it will read through that at the beginning

Brittney: of your conversation and it will remember essentially.

Brittney: And

Brittney: then I've started

Brittney: with like my JIRA tickets.

Brittney: I've made a folder and it makes its own context of markdown files for each ticket.

Brittney: So then

Brittney: I can be like, oh,

Brittney: if I need to pick back workup, I'm like, go refresh your context

Brittney: on this ticket and it will.

Brittney: And then that's helpful for it to just keep like where we're at.

Brittney: And then it can see your entire file system based on like what you give it access to.

Brittney: And

Brittney: because

of that, I think it does a better job than the other ones.

Kevin: Yeah, for sure.

Kevin: Also,

Brittney: I have, sorry, I have the Mac subscription.

Brittney: And I, so I think it's like $100 a month.

Brittney: But I think it's worth it for the time that it saved me.

Brittney: But then I did a workout schedule this week.

Brittney: And I added, it added calendar events to my event.

Brittney: Put on the event, the workout that I needed to do for every day.

Brittney: And like factored in the time, factored in like massage chair at the end.

Brittney: It was,

Kevin: it's been working

Brittney: really well.

Brittney: I like it a lot.

Kevin: Yeah.

Kevin: I remember when AI got big like a couple of years ago, I always wanted it to do stuff like that for me.

Kevin: Like figure my day out, like schedule things when I have time, et

Antony: cetera.

Kevin: But

Antony: yeah.

Antony: It's helpful, yeah.

Kevin: It's helpful.

Kevin: Sorry, I just wanted to mention, like, we were talking about, like, how different LLMs were good at writing Svelte.

Kevin: You mentioned ChatGPT being pretty bad.

Kevin: There's a project, an ongoing project internally.

Kevin: I'm not sure if it's public or not, so maybe I shouldn't talk about this.

Brittney: but there's like a

Kevin: Svelte MCP being worked on that like gives you,

Kevin: gives the LLM feedback on what it writes and just like makes it eventually write

Kevin: correct Svelte 5 code.

Kevin: So that's exciting.

Kevin: And then there's also Svelte Bench that Stanislav Kromov is made that just like

Kevin: tests a bunch of different LLMs and compares them to how Svelte 5 should be written, right?

Kevin: So you get like a percentage score of which LLM is writing the best one.

Kevin: And at the moment, it's Claude Opus 4 and Claude Sonnet 4 that are topping the charts,

Kevin: which kind of makes sense.

Antony: Yeah, not surprising, is it?

Kevin: But then surprising is like after that, there are like two open source Chinese models

Kevin: are up there.

Brittney: And then there's

Brittney: Grot 4 as

Kevin: well.

Brittney: And no thank you to that one as well.

Brittney: Yeah.

Brittney: At

Brittney: least the Chinese

Kevin: ones you can run

Kevin: yourself.

Kevin: You

Brittney: don't have to run it through the servers.

Brittney: I don't want to have my own server. I'm good.

Kevin: Yeah.

Kevin: Totally makes sense.

Brittney: But yeah, I

Kevin: just wanted to mention that.

Brittney: AI has been great.

Brittney: I'm lazy. I like

Antony: lazy things.

Antony: Yeah.

Antony: Well, the way we use AI is we have a thing called Tembo,

Antony: which is a startup that basically

Kevin: reads linear

Antony: tickets.

Antony: Tembo.io.

Brittney: Tembo

Antony: .io.

Antony: You can connect it to various different ticket systems and backlogs,

Antony: and you can go to GitHub or whatever else you use,

Antony: and then basically it can pick up tickets, do

Brittney: the work,

Antony: and then open PRs, which is,

Antony: that's kind of all the workflow I really want from it.

Antony: I'm not going to pretend it's great.

Antony: It's not always great.

Antony: It can do simple things.

Antony: You can automate simple tasks, which is handy.

Antony: It saves you dead getting, you know,

Antony: losing context of what they're working on

Antony: and doing some, like, little patch thing or whatever.

Antony: It sometimes goes crazy.

Antony: I think it uses Claude Under the Hood.

Antony: For some reason, it sometimes goes crazy.

Antony: Does all sorts of mad stuff,

Antony: like regressing dependencies to older versions.

Antony: But it's in a

Brittney: PR, so you can

Antony: review it and say,

Antony: what are you doing?

Antony: What's going on here?

Kevin: Installing is odd and is even.

Antony: Yeah, things like that.

Kevin: Like, seeing

Antony: the presence of libraries

Antony: this within the same monorepo and deciding it should create them all with like with like actual

Antony: code and and package

Kevin: you have to say that this is the wrong approach anthony yeah

Antony: yeah well exactly

Antony: i mean i must be right but yeah so it's it's um it's useful in a sort of confined space should we

Kevin: all right cool what do you guys think should we end it there it's like a first episode teaser for

Kevin: for everyone and then uh i was thinking i would uh invite simon for the next one

Brittney: he mentioned some

Kevin: that he would be interested in coming on and talking about remote functions so

Antony: we can like

Antony: explore

Kevin: that in detail maybe

Antony: we can all learn yeah oh

Kevin: of course we can't forget our two last

Kevin: sections right

Antony: oh yes don't forget our two what

Kevin: did we call them hot takes uh it

Antony: was oh yeah i

Antony: don't know about that one it was it was pics and the other one was um yeah hot takes no it wasn't

Antony: the hot takes it was

Kevin: controversial controversial opinions popular opinions yeah wow

Antony: it's been a

Kevin: Yeah, yeah. I almost wrote hot, unpopular opinions. That's not the one.

Antony: I was going to write hot potatoes.

Antony: Hot, hot potatoes.

Antony: That's another one.

Kevin: Unpopular opinions. Okay.

Kevin: Opinions. All right. I'll go first. You don't have to have one.

Kevin: I'm going to lean in on the work slop thing.

Kevin: AI

Brittney: is not the end

Kevin: -all-be-all of the world, I would say.

Kevin: Sean would probably disagree.

Brittney: He's not

Kevin: here to defend himself.

Kevin: I'm not going to say anything.

Kevin: Say what he would say.

Kevin: But yeah, it's good for some stuff.

Kevin: But I also think like the work slop thing,

Kevin: that is probably a very real thing.

Kevin: And it wastes probably a lot of time.

Kevin: So once we figured that out,

Kevin: maybe it's going to be better.

Kevin: But it all depends on the prompts, right?

Kevin: The people that are asking the AI to do stuff.

Brittney: you need

Kevin: to improve on that part as well

Kevin: so

Brittney: I agree

Kevin: and I

Brittney: don't know if

Brittney: that's a controversial

Brittney: opinion unless you're like

Brittney: the CEO of

Brittney: a company

Brittney: who's just trying to save money with

Brittney: workers but

Brittney: yeah

Brittney: I mean

Brittney: I don't know

Antony: I don't have

Brittney: a controversial opinion

Brittney: go ahead Anthony I know you always have

Brittney: I often

Antony: have

Antony: I didn't really think of one for this one

Brittney: but

Antony: I mean

Antony: Yeah, I think Kev's taken the best one there

Antony: because that is very pertinent right now.

Antony: Very much.

Brittney: That's where you go first.

Brittney: Yeah, it is.

Antony: Wheelhouse, yeah.

Antony: Controversial opinion.

Antony: Oh, I think, right, the controversial opinion I have

Antony: is related really to politics instead.

Brittney: Oh, no.

Brittney: Oh, no.

Brittney: I know.

Antony: Well, it's controversial in a good way, right?

Antony: The fact is that when you have two equally bad governments,

Antony: The only way that you can get the government that you want to win

Antony: or the party that you want to win is by basically finding common ground

Antony: and competing on that.

Antony: Because if you try to beat them by taking the issue that they're championing

Antony: and they're better at it than you are, you're going to lose to

Brittney: them

Antony: with their own arguments.

Antony: So therefore you have to find common ground and then use that common ground

Antony: to differentiate to brand your political party to win.

Antony: And it's very much taken from my pick, actually,

Antony: which I could go to my pick from this,

Brittney: actually.

Brittney: Go for it.

Antony: So my pick is a guy called, and it's really better if you're British,

Antony: but if you're in any way interested in economics or politics

Antony: or anything like that at all, trading, you name it,

Antony: there's a guy called Gary's Economics on YouTube.

Antony: And he is very, very smart.

Antony: So he was the youngest, one of the best traders in the world,

Antony: and also one of the youngest traders in the world,

Antony: working for all the big banks.

Antony: And now he advises banks, but he also does YouTube,

Antony: and basically talks about how actually everything in politics

Antony: is not based on anything about discrimination, race, whatever else.

Antony: It's all based on inequality,

Antony: and it's the inequality divide between the rich and the poor,

Antony: which drives all sorts of resentment inside a population,

Antony: and then drives them to vote and to think in a specific way.

Antony: It's all to do with actually inequality,

Antony: the poor getting poorer and the rich taking everything from the poor.

Antony: So it's worth a watch.

Antony: It's very interesting.

Antony: And he speaks about it in a way that is very much like down to earth.

Antony: It's not, you know, lots of complex terms.

Antony: He's laying it out for you as a layman or layperson would receive that information.

Brittney: Sounds

interesting.

Brittney: um i guess how

Kevin: how would i sorry

Brittney: one second you can go ahead how

Kevin: what what would i call

Kevin: your unpopular opinion anthony find

Antony: my own ground my unpopular opinion is that um

Antony: you can't you can't yeah you can't win a battle by by um fighting with

Antony: like fighting on the same terms, I guess.

Antony: I mean, it's something like that.

Antony: It's

Brittney: basically that you have to find something

Antony: common in order to differentiate.

Antony: Cool.

Kevin: Yeah.

Kevin: All right, Briden, sorry.

Brittney: Oh, no worries.

Brittney: I guess I might have a controversial opinion for somebody.

Brittney: Cats are better than dogs, in my opinion.

Brittney: I

Kevin: guess depending on who you

Brittney: are.

Brittney: That's wrong.

Kevin: That's wrong.

Kevin: 100% true

Kevin: I agree with you

Kevin: and

Brittney: then

Brittney: I guess my pick

Brittney: is going to be

Brittney: um

Brittney: if you like cats

Brittney: and you are like me

Brittney: and think cats

Brittney: are better than dogs

Brittney: find a place

Brittney: that has cats

Brittney: to work from

Brittney: if you can't have cats

Brittney: at

Kevin: home

Kevin: like a cat cafe

Kevin: or something

Brittney: it's

Brittney: yeah

Brittney: that's essentially

Brittney: where I've been working

Kevin: so I got a membership

Brittney: to

Brittney: aww

Brittney: little floof ball

Brittney: you are so cute

Kevin: hold him up again

Brittney: see I love cats

Brittney: this

Kevin: is

Kevin: this is

Kevin: her up again okay

Brittney: screenshot taken this is Bruce

Kevin: yeah that's cute that's a very cute oh I'm hearing

Kevin: a baby screaming

Brittney: yeah maybe

Brittney: I should

Kevin: oh I should I should bring the baby on so you can see him

Kevin: oh you should

Brittney: maybe next week

Kevin: maybe not when he's screaming but

Brittney: yeah all

Kevin: right uh picks so your picks

Kevin: your pick was go to a

Brittney: cat cafe or some other place yes yeah some place with a cat and

Brittney: Anthony

Brittney: scary economics

Kevin: i have i have uh a tv show slow horses oh very very good show first episode of

Kevin: the new season comes out today which is

Brittney: what's it on apple

Kevin: tv plus

Brittney: okay it's

Kevin: about like a i haven't

Brittney: seen that one i heard of yeah

Kevin: it's it's with gary oldman in the as like the lead

Brittney: actor

Kevin: and it's

Kevin: about he basically runs this janky old i don't know what you would call it like a

Brittney: spy in

Kevin: an

Brittney: offshoot

Kevin: of mi6 or something

Brittney: like that oh that sounds interesting and all like the rejects

Kevin: end

Kevin: up there and things happen it's just like fun

Antony: very funny

Brittney: awesome it's

Antony: where where you go and

Antony: they can't really fire you but they basically fire you

Brittney: oh nice i would enjoy that yeah i've been

Brittney: watching star trek

Kevin: star trek there's a new one or are you watching like an old well

Brittney: the one that was

Brittney: out a couple years ago i think it's uh i don't even remember what it was called but it's a

Brittney: the prequel to the original

Kevin: oh there's a prequel to to be honest i am not a star trek uh yeah so

Kevin: like

Brittney: i don't know like captain kirk is on a different ship and like

Antony: all the people

Brittney: kind of

Brittney: get introduced like as yeah so

Antony: an old irc friend recently met captain janeway

Antony: he's got some photos with her in some place in

Brittney: new york next gen right

Antony: which is the one with the ewoks where the ewoks from which star trek that's star wars isn't it

Antony: oh yeah same same thing same thing yeah no

Kevin: but this this is star trek anthony this is star trek

Antony: that's also very

Kevin: very

Antony: insulting to

Kevin: Star Wars fans like myself

Kevin: different

Antony: seasons

Kevin: Star Trek the same as Star Wars

Brittney: oh my god

Antony: Star Wars The Next Generation

Antony: and

Kevin: on that note

Kevin: that's it for this week

Brittney: that's it

Kevin: yeah thank you all for listening

Kevin: I hope you guys enjoyed

Kevin: this as much as I did

Kevin: it was a lot of fun talking to you guys again

Kevin: and I hope we

Kevin: will make this an actual

Kevin: recurring thing.

Kevin: And now Anthony is showing a

Kevin: mug that says, go

Speaker 5: away, I'm coding.

Speaker 5: Go away, I'm coding. That's a very

Speaker 5: old meme, by the way.

Speaker 5: That picture.

Brittney: Classic.

Speaker 5: Alright, goodbye everyone, and we will

Speaker 5: talk to you next week.

Brittney: Bye-bye.

Brittney: next week